What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[EgilTheStressedMage]

I'm honestly more inclined to think it was Yoshida himself trying to get more directly involved with writing process because he's had some...odd takes about things before, like not understanding why Emet-Selch was so popular, citing all of the harm the Ascians have caused as something he would've expected to make him unrelatable and unlikeable.

He's likewise worded things in a manner that makes it seem like he doesn't get the dislike some people have for Hydaelyn/Venat, either.

That too, yeah. It gives off the same vibes Miyamoto and Tanabe had with Super Paper Mario and the near death spiral of Paper Mario as a quality spinoff. But just because a villain is liked doesn’t mean we agree with them. It’s most likely that he isn’t understanding. People don’t love Emet because “Source bad”, we love him because he is literally someone who just wants to go home. It’s the requirements of that goal we don’t agree with. We understand, but don’t agree.

[Lucida3b]

Emet is a masterpiece of how to lead a characters sympathy towards a villain who has done many, many terrible things

[Theodric]

Personally I draw a distinct line between a 'villain' and an 'antagonist'. To me, a villain is a character with little to no sympathetic qualities and no real goal in mind. As it happens, they usually have loftier stakes and more to lose because they don't have the same tiresome plot armour that the self proclaimed heroes of the story are clad in or an instant victory button to press whenever the story decides that they need to win through some contrived method. I've also played many games where a character such as Emet-Selch would be the protagonist of a story rather than the antagonist.

Furthermore, I also don't think there's anything wrong with people agreeing with either Venat or Emet at the end of the day. It's just a fictional story that isn't real and is by no means a reflection of what someone may believe or root for in the real world. That we're dealing with fiction is in itself a good reason for things to not just follow the same bland trajectory where everything is 'safe' and 'predictable'. Modern day real world morals that double as broken aesops have no business being present at all as far as I'm concerned. Though they're unfortunately something that sells and so we're stuck with the problems that have been brought to light with the story throughout this very thread.

As much as some people like to police who likes what in pretty much any fandom, I can't say it's ever been something I've been interested in doing myself. Which just makes Yoshi-P's comments all the more jarring. That he is in charge of the game does not equal being in charge of what players feel and think.

Speaking of which, there's a lot of irony in the famous 'hear, feel, think' since anyone who does is actually told to shut up because it exposes how little thought was put into telling a consistent story...

At this point I just hope at least some of the damage is mitigated retroactively.

FFVIIR is my favourite main title on the basis of actually having fan service that isn't completely one sided, where the 'bad guys' lose absolutely everything and are the only ones other than throwaway characters who are set to suffer meaningful losses.

[PawPaw]

I'm honestly more inclined to think it was Yoshida himself trying to get more directly involved with writing process because he's had some...odd takes about things before, like not understanding why Emet-Selch was so popular, citing all of the harm the Ascians have caused as something he would've expected to make him unrelatable and unlikeable.

He's likewise worded things in a manner that makes it seem like he doesn't get the dislike some people have for Hydaelyn/Venat, either.

This. It's easy to say the CEO made him do it or something but what I've seen and heard from Yoshida since EW has convinced me that the only person making changes was him. His bias towards certain characters has been glaringly obvious and coupling that with his previous incredibly daft takes, I feel he's the likely culprit behind any rewrites that led a character to be portrayed in a way that is confusing and contradictory to the audience.

[Theodric]

This. It's easy to say the CEO made him do it or something but what I've seen and heard from Yoshida since EW has convinced me that the only person making changes was him. His bias towards certain characters has been glaringly obvious and coupling that with his previous incredibly daft takes, I feel he's the likely culprit behind any rewrites that led a character to be portrayed in a way that is confusing and contradictory to the audience.

It'd certainly explain why Garlemald ended up the way that it did as well. He's stated a few times that he has a preference for 'pure fantasy'. Why he didn't think to tone down the advanced technology elements in favour of something closer to Lindblum from FFIX is beyond me, though.

More worrying is his statements along the lines of wanting the game to be something that 'interests him'. If the game becoming his personal playground means more scenes like Y'shtola talking like a baby or Venat being praised for engaging in the 'correct' form of genocide then I doubt my interest in the story could be reignited.

Equally, if he's just doing what he thinks will have mass appeal then he should be smart enough to know that isn't a great business plan. One can easily look at WoW to see how forcing the same handful of characters front and centre at every turn only succeeded at breeding contempt and driving away players who dared to like someone different.

At some point, they won't be able to rely on new players replacing the old blood that is lost.

[PawPaw]

More worrying is his statements along the lines of wanting the game to be something that 'interests him'. If the game becoming his personal playground means more scenes like Y'shtola talking like a baby or Venat being praised for engaging in the 'correct' form of genocide then I doubt my interest in the story could be reignited.

This is honestly a bit horrifying. Just based on how out of touch he has seemed when discussing aspects of the story in the past makes me dread what kind of story he would create if it was less about cohesion and fascinating characters and instead all about things that really interest just him.

[KizuyaKatogami]

How is it pandering? How does someone trying to maintain who they are make no logical sense to you?

Because in the end Gaia didn’t really have her own choice. It was us fighting for her and mitron fighting for her, there was hardly any perspective on Gaia’s own thoughts and what SHE wanted. Instead we’re led to believe after she gets her memories back, that she’d rather be with this random girl she literally met a few days/week ago over her long lost love. We effectively erased Ardbert did we not? By this logic we should have let him die normally and have his soul return to the aetherial sea to have another shot at life. Instead we rejoined with him. It’s a complicated plot. Who deserves more agency gaia or loghrif? Loghrif is certainly still in there as we see. So how do we choose who gets to live at the expense of the other? In the end, Mitron was just fulfilling the promise both him and Loghrif made.

[EgilTheStressedMage]

This is honestly a bit horrifying. Just based on how out of touch he has seemed when discussing aspects of the story in the past makes me dread what kind of story he would create if it was less about cohesion and fascinating characters and instead all about things that really interest just him.

It’d be for people who died to Cloud n Candy in Yoshi’s Story.

[Rulakir]

Personally I draw a distinct line between a 'villain' and an 'antagonist'. To me, a villain is a character with little to no sympathetic qualities and no real goal in mind. As it happens, they usually have loftier stakes and more to lose because they don't have the same tiresome plot armour that the self proclaimed heroes of the story are clad in or an instant victory button to press whenever the story decides that they need to win through some contrived method. I've also played many games where a character such as Emet-Selch would be the protagonist of a story rather than the antagonist.

This. The unsundered Ascians are the heroes of their tale and of the Ancient world as a whole.

This is honestly a bit horrifying. Just based on how out of touch he has seemed when discussing aspects of the story in the past makes me dread what kind of story he would create if it was less about cohesion and fascinating characters and instead all about things that really interest just him.

Everything I've seen and heard from Yoshi-P he is the polar opposite of me, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that Azem has been irritatingly imbued with a similar personality. Some of his takes are atrociously bad. He doesn't understand why people could forgive Emet and not Hermes, really? He compares Venat to both Emet and Hermes, considered actual villains in the franchise, but then wants to communicate she's not a "bad guy"? I could go on, like his favorite character being Alphinaud and him crying incessantly over the Mothercrystal cutscene. I don't think we'd agree on anything in terms of story and characters.

I think the worst part is that everything to do with the Ancients is the foundation of the game's lore, but the implication is he wanted to be done with it because it's not interesting to him/the 'team'. First, that's a Hell of a thing to not be interested in exploring your own lore. Second, just because he doesn't want to doesn't mean players don't love it. The Ancients blow everything else out of the water in popularity polls. I understand to an extent in terms of not having a passion for it, but I'm personally not interested in playing just what Yoshi-P likes when we don't like the same things. I loved Maehiro's work in HW and Ishikawa when she has the creative freedom to do so. Can we not just let the writers do the jobs they're hired for and Yoshi-P stick to directing?

Loghrif is certainly still in there as we see.

Honestly, this bothers me a lot. Especially the beloved Seto scene with Ardbert, I couldn't help but think that these different personalities are in the 'sunken place' like in the movie Get Out. Still there and having to watch, but with no control. It's sort of similar to Steven Universe as well (which annoyingly nobody in this fandom seems to have seen). His persona is "surface", but his original incarnation still exists at his core and is simply being prohibited from returning as long as Steven is alive and essentially the dominant personality.

I've probably given this more thought than the writers have and, aside from the two examples in ShB, we don't see anyone else struggle with any sort of multiple personality disorder from rejoinings. It's possible I'm overthinking it and rejoinings are more like the Crystal Exarch & G'raha. Regardless, I do worry sundered personalities are suppressing the core, immortal soul to some extent.

[Xirean]

Because in the end Gaia didn’t really have her own choice. It was us fighting for her and mitron fighting for her, there was hardly any perspective on Gaia’s own thoughts and what SHE wanted. Instead we’re led to believe after she gets her memories back, that she’d rather be with this random girl she literally met a few days/week ago over her long lost love. We effectively erased Ardbert did we not? By this logic we should have let him die normally and have his soul return to the aetherial sea to have another shot at life. Instead we rejoined with him. It’s a complicated plot. Who deserves more agency gaia or loghrif? Loghrif is certainly still in there as we see. So how do we choose who gets to live at the expense of the other? In the end, Mitron was just fulfilling the promise both him and Loghrif made.

Mitron wasn't pulling out suppressed memories. He was placing his own onto her soul. This is a very similar thing that Emet and other Ascians have been doing with the memory crystals. If Emet wanted to, he could have used the Azem crystal on us and it probably would have worked to effectively overwrite the WoL with Azem. Mitron was trying to pull away at Gaia her entire life as she mentions memory problems even in her childhood. He's basically a parasite to her. As for the WoL fighting for Gaia. She was a bit stuck by Mitron at the time. Once we get them detached she goes back to being herself. Again I ask why that is confusing. Gaia is NOT Loghrif. She is her own person that some other guy she has never met was trying to replace with a dead person. If Gaia chose to be Loghrif then that is her choice. But she did not choose to be Loghrif. She held onto who she was despite outside influence trying to force her into something else.

Ardbert was dead and unable to return to the aetherial sea. I would have loved for him to find peace and return but that didn't happen. For whatever unexplained reason (I think it was mommy crystal) he was stuck as a ghost. If he chose not to rejoin with us, then that would be fine. That's his choice. If we could get him out of us and let him pass on, I'd be fine with that. I didn't want him to rejoin with us because that effectively erases him and partially overwrites the WoL with bits of Ardbert. I don't know where his consciousness is and because he hasn't spoken up since the Seto scene I can only assume that his mind is merged with the WoL. That's not really a happy thing in my eyes either. But it's what happened. The WoL would have died without his intervention and he chose to intervene.