What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[RyuDragnier]

You realize it's possible to like, even love a character and not condone their actions on a personal, real-life level, right?

Unfortunately people in these very forums want to join Emet-Selch and condone his actions, so while I know it's possible, a number of players here are showing me the opposite.

The problem is, no one in the story ever calls her out for her actions. Not even Emet-Selch, at the last; he even compliments her, despite all the suffering she caused to him and the two other Unsundered.

I love Venat as a character, truly. But the way everyone was written to just not question her whatsoever or even condemn her actions as the cruelty it was - that she even says it was - is... a really icky feeling.

The Sundered cannot exactly judge her, because her actions led to their creation, their lives. To judge her harshly is to say they should never have existed to begin with. Though I have no doubt the Scions wanted to give her a piece of their minds for that cruelty, but her admitting to it being cruel meant it was a moot point, she already knew it, they didn't have to say anything.

Emet-Selch btw, only mentioned that his methods never would have brought them that far. I have no doubt he'll forever judge her harshly (as he should).

[Lauront]

Well, I enjoy siding with the Sith in games like SWTOR without endorsing their viewpoints outside a game, so it's not like the two have to go together, although in this case I'm forced to take her side, and I don't identify with the sundered from the outset so much as it is a case of being put in their shoes whether I like it or not, and stuck on a course that is guided by her. It's down to personal beliefs whether one condones their actions or not, although I certainly believe the unsundered had every bit as much of a right to fight to restore their world and people, as do the sundered to preserve a status quo that benefits them and their existence. And yes, as far as I am concerned, I would have my character side with the Ascians given the choice - at least up to SHB's conclusion. After EW, the whole thing could've been resolved sooner with the creation of a branching AU.

As for the sundered? Of course they can judge her. Doing so would not undo their existence. All it's saying is that the cost that was paid for it was steep.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Unfortunately people in these very forums want to join Emet-Selch and condone his actions, so while I know it's possible, a number of players here are showing me the opposite.


The Sundered cannot exactly judge her, because her actions led to their creation, their lives. To judge her harshly is to say they should never have existed to begin with. Though I have no doubt the Scions wanted to give her a piece of their minds for that cruelty, but her admitting to it being cruel meant it was a moot point, she already knew it, they didn't have to say anything.

Emet-Selch btw, only mentioned that his methods never would have brought them that far. I have no doubt he'll forever judge her harshly (as he should).

The problem here is what she did is something the scions have called out constantly, so for them to not do so is extremely biased.

Alphinaud once said in Shadowbringers that living in a Rejoined world would be against his beliefs, saying, "But what value is there in surviving when all our history, all our struggles will be erased? I cannot conscience such an act." I'm sure the irony of that statement is not lost on just me.

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

The Sundered cannot exactly judge her, because her actions led to their creation, their lives. To judge her harshly is to say they should never have existed to begin with. Though I have no doubt the Scions wanted to give her a piece of their minds for that cruelty, but her admitting to it being cruel meant it was a moot point, she already knew it, they didn't have to say anything.

Emet-Selch btw, only mentioned that his methods never would have brought them that far. I have no doubt he'll forever judge her harshly (as he should).

They absolutely can judge her, 'creator' or not. I don't know, that comes off like saying "you can't judge your parent for abusing you and doing terrible things like murder" - you absolutely can, and should.

Venat may have felt remorse and guilt for what she did, and that's fine - actually even paints her in a more humane light than just having a god complex, thinking she knows what was best for the Star and that her actions were justified. But feeling guilt and remorse for what you have done cannot erase the fact you've done it, nor does it obligate the Sundered to be forgiving of those actions. Especially given their stance against Emet-Selch essentially doing similar to Venat, just in reverse - attempting to snuff out the current Sundered lives for the sake of the Unsundered who were lost.

It just comes off as... lazy, almost. Especially with all of the revelations provided to us in Shadowbringers regarding the creation of Zodiark and Hydaelyn, I truly doubt the Scions would have normally chose to just skim over everything Venat has done - that she has fully admitted was wrong to do - no matter whether they felt it was a moot point to press or not.

You also are not understanding the fact that rather than admonishing Venat in any way, Emet-Selch basically compliments her: "our methods would have never brought us this far". That is essentially saying "your method was better in the end", which can be construed as an approval of everything that was done to the Unsundered in the name of the end goal - despite literally the entirety of Shadowbringers and even part of Elpis making it clear that is not the sort of reaction he should have.

It was just very flimsy writing that skimmed over and attempted to excuse or ignore the actual implications of what Venat chose to do, rather than address them properly. Even if she ultimately isn't evil, even if her goals were understandable - and even if the end result was the 'true answer' - just... gliding over everything she chose to do, rings incredibly hollow and icky. As if they didn't want people to see her in a bad light, despite their claims in interviews to the contrary.

[Allegor]

loosely reminds me of Skyrim when Paarthy questions the dragonborn whether Alduin is truly the bad guy for simply doing his job, and we're just interferring with the birth of a new era, to which you can replay with something along the lines of "don't care, the here and now is what matters"

To judge her harshly is to say they should never have existed to begin with.

millennials:

[Nilroreo]

Unfortunately people in these very forums want to join Emet-Selch and condone his actions, so while I know it's possible, a number of players here are showing me the opposite.

I don't condone his actions. Emet is objectively a murderous psycho that had very little intention of compromising with us, but I'm not stupid enough to ignore why he became like this in the first place.

The Sundered cannot exactly judge her, because her actions led to their creation, their lives. To judge her harshly is to say they should never have existed to begin with. Though I have no doubt the Scions wanted to give her a piece of their minds for that cruelty, but her admitting to it being cruel meant it was a moot point, she already knew it, they didn't have to say anything.

Oh but I can, after all, she hypocritically preaches of her love and affection for life on Etheirys while simultaneously condemning inhabitants from at least 7 shards to their preordained deaths. We were the ones fortunate enough to be born in just the right era and shard to avoid becoming collateral damage in Hydaelyn's machinations, so of course the sundered in the present day would be more inclined to let her off the hook. I have enough self awareness to recognize Hydaelyn as a mass murderer. She took our side yes, and we did indeed benefit from her actions, but she is a mass murderer.

[YukikoKurosawa]

I'll be completely honest, I don't really understand the hatred of Venat that has become commonplace. It's already made clear in one of the recent live letters that the sundering wasn't a mass-genocide event as they said the ancients survived sundering but were left "various deformities". So I don't know where this "Venat literally committed genocide" meme came from or why it's still being pushed. While yes she still ended Ancient society she didn't kill everyone. At no point did I feel the story was trying to excuse her either way, not anymore than it has blatantly excused Emet which nobody seems to have a problem with.

I also think it's extremely disingenous to say the game is excusing Venat while excusing Emet when 1. What emet did was a thousand times worse regarldess of motive, he actually killed millions, destroyed multiple entire worlds. and 2. He is completely whitewashed and you are very, very, very clearly meant to like him by the end of EW. Since 5.3 the game has beat you over the head with "Emet goodboy".

I genuinely do not understand how anyone can have a seething hatred of Venat but be perfectly ok with Emet. Like either way I don't care nor do I understand why we routinely have pages upon pages of mad over her. Like ok, character in story did a bad. What's the problem? Her soul has literally been destroyed, meanwhile Emet gets to be reborn and is pretty much completely excused for everything he did. I don't know what more you want. I don't even mind Emet being excused I just don't understand why so many people get so mad over Venat not being crucified by the story for what she did. Like I just don't know what some of you want. Characters, yes even "good" characters can do bad thin. The writers don't need to blatantly blackwash a character because they did something bad. Which just seems to be the complaint, that the writers did not just completley villify her for what she did, which is nowhere near as bad as what Emet has done and he not only got off much better, but he is completely excused for his actions and made to be sympathized with.

I just did not feel they were excusing Venat at all, and they've already confirmed the sundering wasn't a mass-extinction event for the Ancients, so she is nowhere near as bad as Emet, who quite literally murdered millions and nobody in the fandom cares. Like you cannot get angry at Venat and then excuse Emet. EIther way I don't really care, their fictional characters in a story who did a bad and now they're both dead, one super-dead. There much more serious narrative problems to focus on not getting angry that a specific character was not sufficiently blackwashed or punished for their actions.

[Lauront]

I'll be completely honest, I don't really understand the hatred of Venat that has become commonplace. It's already made clear in one of the recent live letters that the sundering wasn't a mass-genocide event as they said the ancients survived sundering but were left "various deformities".

Where did they say it wasn't a genocide? All they said is that the remnants of the ancients had to form new adaptations in response to the situation they were left in. How is this different to poisoning someone to cut their lifespan and remove other attributes of theirs (echo, creation magicks, more besides), to the point that even their progeny are afflicted by this decayed state? You are both killing the individuals (cutting their lifespans) and ending the species in question as something different forms out of it because it has been mutilated and needs to find new ways to adapt to its environment, which is now aetherically more depleted.

I also think it's extremely disingenous to say the game is excusing Venat while excusing Emet when 1. What emet did was a thousand times worse regarldess of motive, he actually killed millions, destroyed multiple entire worlds. and 2. He is completely whitewashed and you are very, very, very clearly meant to like him by the end of EW. Since 5.3 the game has beat you over the head with "Emet goodboy".

Hmm no, I don't recall it doing that at all. It had the Scions voice their opposition to him in no uncertain terms, with Alphinaud even voicing that quote Kizu posted. Your character also opposes him and only throws him a bone in choosing to honour the memory of his people. 5.3 has him honour his part of the bargain and has him put Elidibus to rest.

As for his actions being worse? She allowed for them by letting him escape the Sundering as per the Q&A, creating a loophole he could exploit. Whatever her reasons for doing it, she knew from your recollection of events how that would end, and if she thought things might pan out differently this time, by the point that they began rejoining the 13th, it is clear that was not going to be the case, so she set in motion this entire chain of events whilst doing nothing to clear up the misunderstanding in Emet's mind born of his memory being wiped. Even if she later moved to oppose the Rejoinings (dubious in the event that she wants the timeline to play out the same way...), she still is the one who instigated this. She is the one who gets a pat on the back at the end even from Emet, whilst your character has no opportunity to voice disapproval, and whilst Y'shtola is quick to want to derive a more positive message out of her own self-admitted apologies (to the sundered.) The codex entry of her is positively gushing with praise and banging you over the head about her "love", whilst caricaturing the reasons behind summoning Zodiark, who receives very little in the way of credit for what he did. EW is meant to show how much Emet changed over time thanks to the bloody toil of the Rejoinings, and people already liked him before, in SHB.

I don't really care

Well since you don't care, I suppose that's the end of that. But they didn't confirm anything of the sort in terms of the sundering not being a mass extinction event - it is and no amount of trying to fluff it up is going to change what it was: the end of their kind. Many here are just wishing they had the chance to express disapproval towards her. That is all. She is central to the story, a 10 year arc and at the root of why many people were dissatisfied with the plot, so I can certainly understand why people might be mad.

[PawPaw]

I also think it's extremely disingenous to say the game is excusing Venat while excusing Emet when 1. What emet did was a thousand times worse regarldess of motive, he actually killed millions, destroyed multiple entire worlds. and 2. He is completely whitewashed and you are very, very, very clearly meant to like him by the end of EW. Since 5.3 the game has beat you over the head with "Emet goodboy".

I am not sure why it's confusing to people that what Venat did is responsible for the loss of exponentially more lives than what the Ascians managed. I am not condoning what they did, either. I understand it, but genocide is never right. And no matter which way you'd like to spin it to be more flowery, Venat committed genocide.

Not only did she take the knowledge that we gave her and actively chose not to save 75% of her planet's population, she then took the remainder and divided their souls to the point that they had no recollection of their selves, their memories, their culture, their loved ones, their world, nothing.

From the U.N.


To add to this, she is responsible for introducing mortality to the world. Something that had not been present before, unless the Ancients wished it for themselves. This makes her indirectly responsible for the loss of all life due to old age, illness, disease, warfare and strife (which also never existed prior) across fourteen shards over the past twelve thousand years and onward into the future. What did you think those images being shown to you in her music video were referencing? It was all the trauma she had introduced to the world by breaking it.

Then those seven worlds that The Ascians killed so heartlessly, have you never stopped to consider why Venat allowed those worlds to even exist? Considering that she knew (because we'd told her) that they would all be destroyed? Yeah, she created them knowing that they would have to be sacrificed to create us. They were just pawns in her overall machinations. The Ascians? Wouldn't even exist if not for her and her solo decisions for the planet and the fact that she let them go and allowed their formation. Does this sound like something we should just look the other way about and ignore? really?

I also feel that you're not understanding the point of many here which is that, no one cares if Venat is a villain or not. She would have been far more interesting if the game had actually portrayed her and her actions in the light they deserved, namely those of a narcissistic despot. Instead the game goes above and beyond to excuse her for everything she has done and instead actively makes her out to be a hero. In the same way that you can't understand how people can dislike Venat and like Emet and the Ascians in the same breath, I do not understand how you cannot see that they are both responsible for committing reprehensible deeds, Venat even more than the Ascians; it's just that only one side here is ever being vilified for it while the other is held up as some goddess that we should all be grateful to. No thanks.

[YukikoKurosawa]

Perhaps I misinterpreted it, maybe many Ancients still died and some remained but were left sundered. Either way.

She literally couldn't do anything but what she did because she knew doing anything else would mess up the timeline and you would cease to exist. There was no avoiding what she did because paradox. Like you can get mad but she legitimately could not do anything else unless you would've preferred to be erased along with your entire timeline from existence. While that also means that she is responsible for what Emet did there is nothing she could've done to avoid that without completley messing with the time-loop because by the time you even go back into the past and meet her, you have already wiped out the Ascians. Anything that happened up until the point where you go back to Elpis and tell past-Venat everything would still have to have happened. I don't know how this wasn't explicity clear, she could not have done anything different because time paradox.

Also it's very clear the writers want you to sympathize with and like Emet, even in ShB 5.0 that was made clear by the end, only further reinforced since then and with any and all subtly removed in EW. You literally have a scene where you stretch out your arm longingly towards Emet as you are forced to flee ktisis hyperboreia. It's not even subtle. He is blatantly whitewashed. If you dislike how Venat was excused, than I don't know how you can be okay with Emet's treatment by the writers, who is orders of magnitude worse. Emet doesn't have the excuse she did, while yes he had good reason it still doesn't make what he did justified. The amount of lives Venat may have ended and the suffering she caused does not remotely compare to the amount of death Emet is directly responsible for. He is responsible for the deaths of Minfilia, Moenbryda, and arguably Paplymo. Just off the top of my head. And by the end of the story you're all cool with him.

If you wanted an option to tell Venat to piss off, I don't see how you aren't clamoring for the same option towards Emet, especially when he said "Remember that we once lived". My entire point is you cannot be angry with Venat or how the arguable moral dissonance of how the writers handled her than be perfectly fine with Emet and how the writers handled him. Either way it just comes down to "character did a bad". And all I can think is "okay." They're both dead now. You killed both of them. One of them, the one you're angry with, is super dead. What else do you want?