What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Caurcas]

Getting flashbacks to literally fighting an AI called FATE in Chrono Cross.



It seems to be so to the majority of people; the feelgood stuff just falls apart if you actually cared about or got attached to the "losers" of the tale. It's protagonist-centered morality gone to the extreme... reminds me of a Persona game. "Screw you, our lives may suck but we are free from your tyranny of order! (except for me, the self-insert Japanese high school chad who is surrounded by supportive friends and beautiful women who want to jump my bones and succeeds at everything the first or second time)"

Sidenote, I really wish JP devs would avoid using western theology and belief systems in their work, as they often times have a poor grasp of the subject matter.

[Cach]

Add me to the "I thought I was alone and going insane until I saw this thread" club.

I do not wish to retread old ground, but long story short, I was already shaky on everything post Garlemald and Elpis pulled the cord completely, when I realized that it wasn't a flashback and it was a playable area my heart just sank.

This is my concern as well. It'd be worse than the Meteion reveal. I feel they had the opportunity to go the 'higher power' route with Hydaelyn and Zodiark, but instead chose to make them primals. The only other thing is we know the star somehow doles out souls, but I thought that was either random or had to meet some sort of naturally achieved criteria? It didn't seem implied that there's a consciousness in Etheirys making the decision.

It kinda reminds me of the Loki TV show: "Hey, free will doesn't exist and all everyone did thus far was meaningless and without real agency, but it's okay, here's Graha eating a burger". I can totally see it happening.

[Nilroreo]

Add me to the "I thought I was alone and going insane until I saw this thread" club.

I do not wish to retread old ground, but long story short, I was already shaky on everything post Garlemald and Elpis pulled the cord completely, when I realized that it wasn't a flashback and it was a playable area my heart just sank.

I'm fine with it being a playable area, but I almost wish that instead of arriving there via time travel, if Elidibus or someone else had revealed Elpis still exists in the present day in the form of Azys Lla. We head there, and as a callback to 1.0, we use the Echo not to view the past as an outside observer, but to experience it firsthand by stepping into the shoes of Azem.

[Rulakir]

She withholds information that might've saved them, which she has no reason to do unless following the roadmap, but then proceeds to plead with them not to sacrifice lives to Zodiark and instead find another way forward, breaking away from the roadmap. They naturally refuse, and she sunders her children "out of love" while deliberately avoiding Emet who she's fully aware would attempt to undo what she's done by rejoining the shards and effectively killing all the lives she "saved" (Following roadmap), then she goes on to treat the loss of those shards as failures on her part (not following roadmap). Fickle fickle fickle.

Yoshi-P indicated in the Q&A LL that she'd already made up her mind after the summoning of Zodiark that the Ancients were always going to be their own undoing, so it didn't even matter. Everything else was arguably the biggest scam in the history of the world to give her the power to tear it apart so that they didn't risk becoming The Plenty, that 'horrible' future where everything is actually great and people are just bored as opposed to having to deal with endless plague, famine, war, and death.

I know what their intention was, but this story needed to be subjected to some sort of critique beyond Yoshi-P, Ishikawa, and Oda. I find it difficult to believe nobody thought to themselves this makes Venat look like a terrible person and the main antagonist of the series overshadowing even the bringer of the Final Days. I can only hope they learned some valuable lessons from this going into the next "conflict in values" arc.

[Nilroreo]

Yoshi-P indicated in the Q&A LL that she'd already made up her mind after the summoning of Zodiark that the Ancients were always going to be their own undoing, so it didn't even matter. Everything else was arguably the biggest scam in the history of the world to give her the power to tear it apart so that they didn't risk becoming The Plenty, that 'horrible' future where everything is actually great and people are just bored as opposed to having to deal with endless plague, famine, war, and death.

In the event that the apocalypse ever happens, remind me never to accidentally wish for life to go back to normal, lest god himself descends from the heavens and strikes at me with such ferocity that my very soul is split and I suddenly mutate into a kawaii cat girl lol.

I know what their intention was, but this story needed to be subjected to some sort of critique beyond Yoshi-P, Ishikawa, and Oda. I find it difficult to believe nobody thought to themselves this makes Venat look like a terrible person and the main antagonist of the series overshadowing even the bringer of the Final Days. I can only hope they learned some valuable lessons from this going into the next "conflict in values" arc.

Oh but didn't she look so damn cool walking down that blood-soaked path with Answers blasting in the background!? Who wouldn't wanna tattoo" To live is to suffer" across their forehead after seeing that. Jokes aside, I agree. Learning that our path to victory was paved over a mountain of corpses consisting of those who were denied the right to know why they had to die for our sake is never going to sit right with me.

[Lucida3b]

Fundamentally even if you love venat there is a clear dissonance between what even she says and what the narrative portrays her as.

And the devs are in a extremely odd position now where they either have to clarify or make the narrative around her more honest or ignore it. the latter which would make it fester, since it seems the views are not calming down around venat. But that In turn risks turning off people who bought the initial premise on Venat.

They have to very much thread a very awkward needle.

[Theodric]

At this point the best thing to do is to simply keep raising awareness of the issues each and every time that there's a new lore Q&A session. Maybe nothing will come of it, but they're clearly willing to go all out with their fan service where the likes of Y'shtola and G'raha are concerned so if we're lucky...we may be able to get a bone thrown our way where the Ancients are concerned.

I hate to say it, but even World of Warcraft and Elder Scrolls Online do a better job at fanservice for those who like the equivalent of the 'Ancients'. There's multiple ruins to explore. Ghosts of the past to interact with. Even the occasional survivor or offshoot of the original 'Ancients'. That's the sort of thing I want to experience in an adventure - not sitting around having a cup of tea with the Scions or helping Y'shtola reunite with Runar.

I guess more than anything, I just wanted more of Endwalker to be devoted to serious storytelling. All of the 'slice of life' stuff could have easily been shifted over to patch content instead when the narrative reached a point where things genuinely slowed down.

[Rulakir]

I've been thinking about how at the end of things I want my WoL reunited with Emet and Hythlodaeus, I don't care much at all about the Scions. The reason is I don't feel like we're close friends. I'd say at most Alisaie and G'raha are actual friends of the WoL, the rest are just colleagues with whom the WoL inevitably ends up sharing a common goal. The end scene on the ship is the most emotional reaction I've seen out of the Scions and even that wasn't saying much outside of my two exemptions.

I like Thancred and Estinien, but they're brothers-in-arms. If you've ever lost a friendship because you quit sharing activities and discovered there wasn't much of a connection without those common threads, that is how I feel about the Scions. I think for the most part all of them have their own pursuits that once they're no longer aligned with the WoL would drift apart.* I didn't get that impression with Emet and Hythlodaeus, in fact, Emet and Azem frequently didn't align but still cared for and aided one another. Hythlodaeus just loved them both and was along for the ride. :P I see even Alisaie deviating from that as she's been poised to become Alphinaud 2.0. While G'raha is involved with the Students of Baldesion he still seems willing to drop everything where the WoL is concerned. (Side note: I thought we were going to discover G'raha was Hythlodaeus' shard back in ShB.)

* I seriously question if the WoL ever decided to deviate from the Scions' collective morality if they'd still stand with the WoL. I think at the very least there would be a split among them with Urianger for sure throwing us under the bus. (Why is he still allowed to be on my team?!) Now that I think about it, I could totally see a Captain America: Civil War happening. Just for fun, who do you think would stand with the WoL and who against? I'm going with Alisaie, G'raha, and Estinien with / Y'shtola, Urianger, Alphinaud against. Thancred against if it involved Ascians, otherwise he's probably the Black Widow of the bunch.

Edit: Well, now I've gone down the rabbit hole. If the WoL is Captain America, would Emet be Bucky? Hmm.

[SpectrePhantasia]

That's the problem with the Scions; there's no change, and thus no ability to really grow closer with them. The reason there is no change is because there is no conflict. They are always in uniform agreement on essentially every issue and function as yes-men machines to get the plot moving in whatever direction the writers want. They are not characters now, they are vehicles.

There is a reason why people loved the Heavensward light party of the WoL, Estinien, Ysayle, and Alphinaud so much, (Bear with me and try to remember the Alphinaud post ARR that had some true depth to him) and that's because it had conflict. Ysayle was the leader of the heretics, a woman who defied the predominant faith of the culture you've just grown accustomed to, and who you've fought before. Then you have Estinien, a staunch believer in Ishgard's side of history who fights tooth and nail to justify his hatred of dragonkind due to what he's experienced in the past, and it shows in how he acts (who you may have also fought before). This clash leads to genuine arguments and tense moments that the WoL and Alphinaud contribute to as neutral 3rd parties, mediating and urging focus on their larger goal. In time, they all come to bond over their pasts and form a desire to find an agreeable solution, in spite of their disagreements. Even now, people are yearning for the chemistry this group had in their short time together.

I would urge the people who write these characters to remember that having two people stand next to each other and work towards a similar goal does not make them friends. It's growing closer through conflict and resolution, no matter how large or small. No amount of burger outings are going to make me feel something for these people. The closest we've gotten in regard to the scions is Urianger lacking trust, but I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that never really goes anywhere meaningful.

[Skyborne]

That's the problem with the Scions; there's no change, and thus no ability to really grow closer with them. The reason there is no change is because there is no conflict. They are always in uniform agreement on essentially every issue and function as yes-men machines to get the plot moving in whatever direction the writers want. They are not characters now, they are vehicles.

There is a reason why people loved the Heavensward light party of the WoL, Estinien, Ysayle, and Alphinaud so much, (Bear with me and try to remember the Alphinaud post ARR that had some true depth to him) and that's because it had conflict. Ysayle was the leader of the heretics, a woman who defied the predominant faith of the culture you've just grown accustomed to, and who you've fought before. Then you have Estinien, a staunch believer in Ishgard's side of history who fights tooth and nail to justify his hatred of dragonkind due to what he's experienced in the past, and it shows in how he acts (who you may have also fought before). This clash leads to genuine arguments and tense moments that the WoL and Alphinaud contribute to as neutral 3rd parties, mediating and urging focus on their larger goal. In time, they all come to bond over their pasts and form a desire to find an agreeable solution, in spite of their disagreements. Even now, people are yearning for the chemistry this group had in their short time together.

I would urge the people who write these characters to remember that having two people stand next to each other and work towards a similar goal does not make them friends. It's growing closer through conflict and resolution, no matter how large or small. No amount of burger outings are going to make me feel something for these people. The closest we've gotten in regard to the scions is Urianger lacking trust, but I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that never really goes anywhere meaningful.

It's been said many times before and yes... it's just peculiar when you notice it. The Alliance leaders all seem to get along very well with no heavy disagreements, despite all being from very different cultures and having different values and different needs (no, I don't count the comic relief bickering between No-Wenches? and Jolly Ol' Boy)... and somehow I kind of doubt 6.2+ will do anything in regards to that, even though the main threats are now gone. I would like to be proven wrong... but EW showed propping up and swaddling the player with a feel-good blanket to be the main priority.

Even the Ancients, who had the 'humble and benevolent collective' (or 'omg bad oppressive stagnant hubristic decadent circling the drain dystopia' if you see it that way) thing going on was implied to have disagreements all the time that they worked out through debates with the one we saw in Amaurot as an example, with their society only being totally torn apart post-Final Days.