What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Allegor]

To be entirely fair, Hydaelyn herself stated she's not 'the good guy' and constantly lamented/doubted her course of actions, whereas Emet and the other ascians couldn't care less if they tried and never hesitated to commit countless genocides. It's not much, but at least she's self aware rather than self righteous /shrug

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

To be entirely fair, Hydaelyn herself stated she's not 'the good guy' and constantly lamented/doubted her course of actions, whereas Emet and the other ascians couldn't care less if they tried and never hesitated to commit countless genocides. It's not much, but at least she's self aware rather than self righteous /shrug

The problem is, no one in the story ever calls her out for her actions. Not even Emet-Selch, at the last; he even compliments her, despite all the suffering she caused to him and the two other Unsundered.

I love Venat as a character, truly. But the way everyone was written to just not question her whatsoever or even condemn her actions as the cruelty it was - that she even says it was - is... a really icky feeling.

[RyuDragnier]

You realize it's possible to like, even love a character and not condone their actions on a personal, real-life level, right?

Unfortunately people in these very forums want to join Emet-Selch and condone his actions, so while I know it's possible, a number of players here are showing me the opposite.

The problem is, no one in the story ever calls her out for her actions. Not even Emet-Selch, at the last; he even compliments her, despite all the suffering she caused to him and the two other Unsundered.

I love Venat as a character, truly. But the way everyone was written to just not question her whatsoever or even condemn her actions as the cruelty it was - that she even says it was - is... a really icky feeling.

The Sundered cannot exactly judge her, because her actions led to their creation, their lives. To judge her harshly is to say they should never have existed to begin with. Though I have no doubt the Scions wanted to give her a piece of their minds for that cruelty, but her admitting to it being cruel meant it was a moot point, she already knew it, they didn't have to say anything.

Emet-Selch btw, only mentioned that his methods never would have brought them that far. I have no doubt he'll forever judge her harshly (as he should).

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

The Sundered cannot exactly judge her, because her actions led to their creation, their lives. To judge her harshly is to say they should never have existed to begin with. Though I have no doubt the Scions wanted to give her a piece of their minds for that cruelty, but her admitting to it being cruel meant it was a moot point, she already knew it, they didn't have to say anything.

Emet-Selch btw, only mentioned that his methods never would have brought them that far. I have no doubt he'll forever judge her harshly (as he should).

They absolutely can judge her, 'creator' or not. I don't know, that comes off like saying "you can't judge your parent for abusing you and doing terrible things like murder" - you absolutely can, and should.

Venat may have felt remorse and guilt for what she did, and that's fine - actually even paints her in a more humane light than just having a god complex, thinking she knows what was best for the Star and that her actions were justified. But feeling guilt and remorse for what you have done cannot erase the fact you've done it, nor does it obligate the Sundered to be forgiving of those actions. Especially given their stance against Emet-Selch essentially doing similar to Venat, just in reverse - attempting to snuff out the current Sundered lives for the sake of the Unsundered who were lost.

It just comes off as... lazy, almost. Especially with all of the revelations provided to us in Shadowbringers regarding the creation of Zodiark and Hydaelyn, I truly doubt the Scions would have normally chose to just skim over everything Venat has done - that she has fully admitted was wrong to do - no matter whether they felt it was a moot point to press or not.

You also are not understanding the fact that rather than admonishing Venat in any way, Emet-Selch basically compliments her: "our methods would have never brought us this far". That is essentially saying "your method was better in the end", which can be construed as an approval of everything that was done to the Unsundered in the name of the end goal - despite literally the entirety of Shadowbringers and even part of Elpis making it clear that is not the sort of reaction he should have.

It was just very flimsy writing that skimmed over and attempted to excuse or ignore the actual implications of what Venat chose to do, rather than address them properly. Even if she ultimately isn't evil, even if her goals were understandable - and even if the end result was the 'true answer' - just... gliding over everything she chose to do, rings incredibly hollow and icky. As if they didn't want people to see her in a bad light, despite their claims in interviews to the contrary.

[Nilroreo]

Unfortunately people in these very forums want to join Emet-Selch and condone his actions, so while I know it's possible, a number of players here are showing me the opposite.

I don't condone his actions. Emet is objectively a murderous psycho that had very little intention of compromising with us, but I'm not stupid enough to ignore why he became like this in the first place.

The Sundered cannot exactly judge her, because her actions led to their creation, their lives. To judge her harshly is to say they should never have existed to begin with. Though I have no doubt the Scions wanted to give her a piece of their minds for that cruelty, but her admitting to it being cruel meant it was a moot point, she already knew it, they didn't have to say anything.

Oh but I can, after all, she hypocritically preaches of her love and affection for life on Etheirys while simultaneously condemning inhabitants from at least 7 shards to their preordained deaths. We were the ones fortunate enough to be born in just the right era and shard to avoid becoming collateral damage in Hydaelyn's machinations, so of course the sundered in the present day would be more inclined to let her off the hook. I have enough self awareness to recognize Hydaelyn as a mass murderer. She took our side yes, and we did indeed benefit from her actions, but she is a mass murderer.

[CrownySuccubus]

Oh but I can, after all, she hypocritically preaches of her love and affection for life on Etheirys while simultaneously condemning inhabitants from at least 7 shards to their preordained deaths. We were the ones fortunate enough to be born in just the right era and shard to avoid becoming collateral damage in Hydaelyn's machinations, so of course the sundered in the present day would be more inclined to let her off the hook. I have enough self awareness to recognize Hydaelyn as a mass murderer. She took our side yes, and we did indeed benefit from her actions, but she is a mass murderer.

Yep. This is what I said earlier of why I don't like "Duality" (Light / Dark, Yin / Yang, Order / Chaos are both equal and necessary) plots. Eventually, it leads to Survivorship Bias: "It's a good thing this horrible event happened, because it benefits ME and the other people who survived it."

Endwalker's plot reeks of Survivorship Bias.

[PawPaw]

To be entirely fair, Hydaelyn herself stated she's not 'the good guy' and constantly lamented/doubted her course of actions, whereas Emet and the other ascians couldn't care less if they tried and never hesitated to commit countless genocides. It's not much, but at least she's self aware rather than self righteous /shrug

I wouldn't call her acknowledgement of her crimes "constant". She does so once and Y'shtola immediately dismisses it at though we would have to be absolutely mad to even think for a second that she was in the wrong. The difference in the way the game treats two characters who both committed genocide is the issue here, not which one was more repentant. One is condemned to be a villain for trying to repair his world and, in the process, committing genocide. While the other betrays the very same world and splits it apart to begin with (incidentally, also knowingly creating the worlds the first character destroys). This is also committing genocide but is she a villain, like the other person was? No, now she's a hero and genocide is "OK" as long as it's being done for our benefit. And the game never lets you think for a second that this is not the right way to think or feel. It's a sickening double standard.

[Lauront]

To be entirely fair, Hydaelyn herself stated she's not 'the good guy' and constantly lamented/doubted her course of actions, whereas Emet and the other ascians couldn't care less if they tried and never hesitated to commit countless genocides. It's not much, but at least she's self aware rather than self righteous /shrug

I don't really buy that. She only ever explicitly apologises to the sundered, and speculating, I think in part it was because life after the sundering turned out to be worse than she could've imagined. Not the unsundered whose world she destroyed and whose people she ended, which she treats as a necessity. At that point, an apology that is brushed past by Y'shtola and never commented upon elsewhere means little to me.

I wouldn't call her acknowledgement of her crimes "constant". She does so once and Y'shtola immediately dismisses it at though we would have to be absolutely mad to even think for a second that she was in the wrong. The difference in the way the game treats two characters who both committed genocide is the issue here, not which one was more repentant. One is condemned to be a villain for trying to repair his world and, in the process, committing genocide. While the other betrays the very same world and splits it apart to begin with (incidentally, also knowingly creating the worlds the first character destroys). This is also committing genocide but is she a villain, like the other person was? No, now she's a hero and genocide is "OK" as long as it's being done for our benefit. And the game never lets you think for a second that this is not the right way to think or feel. It's a sickening double standard.

There is this too. Apologies are fine and all but at the end of the day she is responsible for all of this, including putting Emet in a position where he sees his world and people torn up inexplicably and reduced to forms he no longer recognises and struggles to relate to, knowing he'd go on to perform the Rejoinings with the rest of them. Yet the story treatment of the two could not be more of a polar opposite.

[Skyborne]

I now half-wonder what the reaction would be to an ascian who was actually genuinely apologetic and regretful for his/her actions, but nonetheless committed to them convinced it was the right thing. "I'm sorry, little ones, but the rejoinings must continue for your sake..." "With each Ardor, we bring horror and injustice beyond words. Yet, it means one less that our shattered people must suffer. One more piece of ourselves reclaimed."

No doubt, in my head, there would be plenty of "Being sorry is not good enough!" "Nothing can justify it!"

I mean, Elidibus could've been that, his portrayal from 'smug manipulative bastard' to 5.3 was already pretty jarring.

[PawPaw]

I now half-wonder what the reaction would be to an ascian who was actually genuinely apologetic and regretful for his/her actions, but nonetheless committed to them convinced it was the right thing. "I'm sorry, little ones, but the rejoinings must continue for your sake..."

No doubt, in my head, there would be plenty of "Being sorry is not good enough!" "Nothing can justify it!"

I mean, Elidibus could've been that, his portrayal from 'smug manipulative bastard' to 5.3 was already pretty jarring.

If only Emet had called us his "brave little spark " earlier instead of being a grumpy grump, everything would have been just fine then!