What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[aveyond-dreams]

The Scions are indeed all university students. That is precisely the vibe they give. That is precisely why we need to swap them out for, idk, protagonists that are comparatively more interesting? If I wanted to play a game with just a cast of students I would go out and play Persona.

[CrownySuccubus]

Meh. Probably wouldn't make any difference. Ishgard and the Far Eastern groups were about as far as you could get from the "educated in Sharlayan" archetype that half of the Scions represent, and most of them quickly begin to conform to the same moral standing as the main cast.

The core problem remains that they want the player character to always be on the side of "good", and have everyone else marvel at their goodness.

[Brinne]

The WoL absolutely has a baseline personality, within which the player is given a lot of room to work further. No matter what you do, the WoL is going to be quiet, passive, and kind-hearted. They will love adventure. They're pretty humble. If you do the DRK quests, your character gets defined further - a good person who wants to do good, but is also struggling deeply with both internal resentment and guilt.

Similarly, the devs have actually talked about flirting with letting the WoL have stronger, more defined reactions to characters and situations ever since the feedback they got from having the WoL respond to Haurchefant's death was mostly positive. Generally, I think it's paid off. Reservations about the MSQ as a whole aside, I actually really enjoyed seeing my WoL more engaged in the action of scenes at the end of Ultima Thule. But for another example, WoL will always be sad and practically pine for Emet-Selch in Elpis and beyond. Even players who hate Emet-Selch will reach for him in anguish as they leave Ktisis. (It rules.)

And honestly, I actually really like this most of the time. I like the feeling of "collaboration" where the game gives me some building blocks in terms of my character and then I shape the particulars, and I like that my character has the capacity to surprise me in their reactions so my imagination gets going in terms of incorporating that into my understanding of them. The WoL is such a central figure in the plot that there has to be a baseline when talking about them and their relationships.

Yes, there are times when I find the "passive" aspect frustrating in that I disagree with their approach - as far back as ARR, playing nice with Merlwyb had me gritting my teeth a little. But, uh, hey, it's consistent, I guess. Venat is the closest thing to a dealbreaker in that regard, as usual. But I don't have a problem seeing the WoL as a flawed person in some regards.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The WoL absolutely has a baseline personality, within which the player is given a lot of room to work further. No matter what you do, the WoL is going to be quiet, passive, and kind-hearted. They will love adventure. They're pretty humble. If you do the DRK quests, your character gets defined further - a good person who wants to do good, but is also struggling deeply with both internal resentment and guilt.

Similarly, the devs have actually talked about flirting with letting the WoL have stronger, more defined reactions to characters and situations ever since the feedback they got from having the WoL respond to Haurchefant's death was mostly positive. Generally, I think it's paid off. Reservations about the MSQ as a whole aside, I actually really enjoyed seeing my WoL more engaged in the action of scenes at the end of Ultima Thule. But for another example, WoL will always be sad and practically pine for Emet-Selch in Elpis and beyond. Even players who hate Emet-Selch will reach for him in anguish as they leave Ktisis. (It rules.)

And honestly, I actually really like this most of the time. I like the feeling of "collaboration" where the game gives me some building blocks in terms of my character and then I shape the particulars, and I like that my character has the capacity to surprise me in their reactions so my imagination gets going in terms of incorporating that into my understanding of them. The WoL is such a central figure in the plot that there has to be a baseline when talking about them and their relationships.

Yes, there are times when I find the "passive" aspect frustrating in that I disagree with their approach - as far back as ARR, playing nice with Merlwyb had me gritting my teeth a little. But, uh, hey, it's consistent, I guess. Venat is the closest thing to a dealbreaker in that regard, as usual. But I don't have a problem seeing the WoL as a flawed person in some regards.

I don’t really see this wiggle room personally. Like i’ve mentioned before, we are typically only given negative responses to the ascians, like in 5.3 where we can only really say to Elidibus his people are dead and he’s next, or now in pandemonium where my character scowls every single time Lahabrea’s name is mentioned. I don’t really see this as strong or defined. For a game that constantly pushes the message of morality is subjective and the story isn’t black and white, our responses to a specific group are consistently negative.

[Brinne]

I don’t really see this wiggle room personally. Like i’ve mentioned before, we are typically only given negative responses to the ascians, like in 5.3 where we can only really say to Elidibus his people are dead and he’s next, or now in pandemonium where my character scowls every single time Lahabrea’s name is mentioned. I don’t really see this as strong or defined. For a game that constantly pushes the message of morality is subjective and the story isn’t black and white, our responses to a specific group are consistently negative.

When I say wiggle room, I'm talking about exploring nuance, mostly, not big in-game decisions or concrete dialogue choices. A friend of mine compare our WoLs constantly, and they're very different characters overall, even though they both fit into that broad umbrella of "quiet, passive, humble, and kind." They even both incorporate the DRK aspect of "struggling with being a hero," but it takes different shapes. We have a lot of fun with it.

Anyway, playing devil's advocate a bit with the Ascians, I remember back in Shadowbringers there was definitely a group who hated the fact that the WoL would always nod to Emet-Selch's request at the end, to the point of trying to "fix" it through fanart by having their WoL, like, spit in his face instead. I loved it. I love that Shadowbringers gives you no choice but to be the capstone on the thematic triumphs of Shadowbringers in showing kindness and respect to the hero on the opposite side of the field. If you had the option to reject him, I think ShB would have been much weaker for it, honestly.

Similarly, every time I revisit WoL's reactions to Emet-Selch in Elpis, I just laugh at the sheer audacity and hilarity of it. (I also completely loved this in every way.) They are so hung up on him. Emet-Selch mentions early on that WoL can't stop staring at him. They look super sad when Emet snarks back at them about "Emet-Selch didn't do a proper job with my aether!" They're so bothered after Emet throws his tantrum and leaves that they linger on his ~abandoned teacup~, and are so bothered that Venat notices and tries to comfort them that she's sure Emet-Selch won't actually leave them in the cold. They have a huge reaction when they see Emet later and Emet admits, in his tsundere way, that he's supporting them in investigating their story. They will reach out to him in anguish as he's left behind in Ktisis. They will clench their fists in continued agony at the confirmation he has lost his memory. They will be so very sad at him not choosing to live again in Ultima Thule Emet-Selch has to stop on his way out and comfort them.

In 5.3, yes, we're harsh with Elidibus in that moment, because the writing is trying to further force the parallel of you = Emet-Selch. Then we kneel next to him and offer him all the Ascian memory crystals to comfort him, we have the option to say "I'm not sure if I did the right thing" in regards to killing him, the option to tell Estinien you'll keep trying to reach out to the Ascians in Azys Lla, and the option to tell Elidibus "I'm sorry" in Crystal Tower 6.0. You will always oppose Elidibus and kill him, just like Emet-Selch, but there is absolutely room to feel awful about it and doubt yourself for it. More room than with Emet, because with Elidibus, you get the option to not to! Your WoL is going to be hung up on Emet-Selch whether you like it or not.

Lahabrea I have no particular commentary on because as soon as I hear his name my brain collapses into a mess of memes. We'll see how Pandaemonium rolls out, I guess!

[CrownySuccubus]

For a game that constantly pushes the message of morality is subjective and the story isn’t black and white, our responses to a specific group are consistently negative.

Exactly this. The only time the WOL has a morality are on occasions where the plot is being railroaded into a clear good and bad.

I once again mention the moment that we're told they're "shocked" and "disturbed" when Hythlodaeus turns butterflies into robes and mentions that Ancients willingly kill themselves when they've fulfilled their "purpose" in life.

[Skyborne]

My preference for the main party moving forward is still for characters that serve as successors to the trio of Ancients, but overall what we need most is contrast and the balancing you mention.

Locke from FFVI and Zidane from FFIX as rogues/treasure hunters/thieves provided good entertainment when they were on screen, and would certainly fit the niche that Thancred left vacant. When it comes to sassy women, they work best when they have someone to bounce off and challenge, but there isn't anyone in the main party for Alisae to bicker with besides Alphinaud, once, in Il Mheg when she grabbed him by the collar.

To be honest though, the sass by now is just too annoying and stale. I miss when girl characters were allowed to be ditzy and silly, like some of Vanille's mannerisms from FFXIII or how interactions between Sarah and Garland went down with their completely different personalities. I even miss when Rikku practically opened FFX-2 with the word "disasterific." Traditional heroines in the way of Yuna or Terra seem largely absent. This is partly due to there being a strong aversion towards showing female cast members in vulnerable moments in FFXIV which would be critical for such characters to grow in meaningful ways. Yet it is perfectly fine to get long drawn out emotional cutscenes with G'raha Tia. For some reason.

100%. I know Sadu and Magnai are fairly well-liked characters, even if many think the latter was too cocky, but they were both stubborn and strong-willed and clashed with each other all the time. Has anyone ever backtalked to Shtola? My memories are crumbling (like poor Elidibus). I just crave someone who has some backbone, or is hotheaded, or flirtatious, and so on.

the option to tell Estinien you'll keep trying to reach out to the Ascians in Azys Lla

Speaking of memories crumbling I forgot this... here's hoping that this remains true and we don't just blast and kill all of the remaining ascians. Having a former ascian who's just happy that we released all those languishing souls in Zodiark (and also crabraving over Hydaelyn being dead) join our group even if s/he clashes in personality with the other protags has been a dumb idea rolling around in my head for ages.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Exactly this. The only time the WOL has a morality are on occasions where the plot is being railroaded into a clear good and bad.

I once again mention the moment that we're told they're "shocked" and "disturbed" when Hythlodaeus turns butterflies into robes and mentions that Ancients willingly kill themselves when they've fulfilled their "purpose" in life.

Indeed. I just can’t connect to my WoL whatsoever because they’re essentially the opposite of me. I’d never say those things to Elidibus, i’d have opened my damn mouth against Venat and Hydaelyn, i wouldn’t be stupid and start scowling when someone in the past mentions Lahabrea because i know that Lahabrea is from before the world went to shit. I want to try to immerse myself but it’s virtually impossible. Most storylines are just ascian bad, no option to be sympathetic with them, just gotta kill then and pretend to act all sad after….if only that occurred before we killed said person.

[CrownySuccubus]

Yeah, it's very disjointed, especially since it's obvious (and later confirmed by the devs themselves) that the Ascians were originally just cackling, shady bad guys with no clear goals or motives other than "doing bad things".

They didn't actually come up with motives for them until ShB, at which point, their admittedly VERY sympathetic motives never completely meshed with their original portrayals as sadistic madmen.

If I'm being completely honest, when Hermes is first introduced, my original reaction to him was the same amount of disgust that the WOL has to Lahabrea. I did have sympathy for him when he expressed his doubts and fear of death, but that sympathy once again went out of the window after seeing how much he lied to and betrayed his fellow Ancients.

[Theodric]

As someone who typically favours playing the role of a diplomatic opportunist in a video game, I don't particularly care for the way in which my character is forced to react to many situations within the game itself. The writers can't account for everything, of course, but one would have thought a company with an ethics department would realise that maybe it isn't the best approach to have the player character indirectly supporting the genocide of an entire race.

I don't need video game developers telling me how to think and feel about complicated moral predicaments. It's why I love Final Fantasy VII - it doesn't pretend as if the eco-terrorists with blood on their hands are removed of any blame or consequences for their actions.