What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

So, emotions bad, logic good. Anime, bad. ������ Got it. I bet you're just a joy when watching movies.

And yeah, they would believe her, maybe? We don't know if they would. We don't know how Hermes would react. Again, telling them might be what sets off the fear leading to the Final Days in the first place.

Also, as beings of basically pure Aether, the Ancients couldn't reallly reach Meteion or fight her. Her realm is pure Dynamis, which the Ancients couldn't manipulate. Also, they needed massive amounts of Aether just to power the ship from a thousand thousand years of gathered energy from the Mother crystal. Chances are, the Ancients would probably have had to sacrifice many of their number just to power the engines. Third, there's the personality of most of the Ancients. They have no clue how to overcome despair. They never dealt with it. They couldn't even recognize the depression in Hermes, much less have a way to treat it.

I really dont get where this "Ancients couldnt manipulate dynamis" loophole is coming from.We see them use lb's in the dungeon. We know they have a facility capable of training them in that field. Also yes, logic is good. When you build a story around specific pieces of lore, but then throw all that lore out of the window just because...rule of cool, its kind of a problem for a lot of people. I dont think its really a maybe if they'd believe her. As we saw, Emet has his duty. Whether he believes someone or not, he needs to investigate due to his duty of the star. However, he knows he was mind wiped. All Venat has to do is tell him what happened along with the events leading up to the mind wipe. People act like she was some random citizen. She was Azem, an ex convocation member. Also, they dealt with suffering. We see this throughout the side quests on Elpis and even in Pandaemonium. So not sure where that comes from either.Also i'd say they overcame it considering they survived and summoned Zodiark...

[Neotempest]

Didn't Venat show us magic that would show what happened in a particular place (kind of like the echo?). How hard would it be for her to show Emet and Hyth what happened at several locations to prove what she said was true? She had a tracker on Metion. There had to be research records on Metions design. People keep acting like it's just Venat's word against everyone. There is evidence and there are witnesses... we spent our whole time in Elpis finding it. The memwipe was a cheesy gimmick, imo. Emet and Hyth believed us... why wouldn't they believe Venat? Heck... wouldn't a cursory look at the Krono or whatever it was called show there was no malfunction?

Let's also not forget the warning could have come BEFORE the final days even started, lending credibility to the claim.... it's not like she had to wait until catastrophe hit to tell anyone.

There are a few things we can piece together. There were two things that could be done with the memory that was explained. 1 is that memories from locations fade away fairly quickly. 2 is to invade another persons soul to see memories. From what we can tell, the Ancients frown heavily upon invading another persons privacy. With Hermes former comrade deciding to die and Hermes never getting an answer for it, even when they were close, Hermes could of easily looked at anyones memories in their soul. Heck, Emet could of done that the moment you met. From the looks of it even if they have that power to do so, they refuse to look at memories in another soul for answers. For the way they take it, it could be considered as hard "R-ing" the individual if they do it forcefully or even willingly since anything could be seen.

[Neotempest]

I really dont get where this "Ancients couldnt manipulate dynamis" loophole is coming from.We see them use lb's in the dungeon. We know they have a facility capable of training them in that field. Also yes, logic is good. When you build a story around specific pieces of lore, but then throw all that lore out of the window just because...rule of cool, its kind of a problem for a lot of people. I dont think its really a maybe if they'd believe her. As we saw, Emet has his duty. Whether he believes someone or not, he needs to investigate due to his duty of the star. However, he knows he was mind wiped. All Venat has to do is tell him what happened along with the events leading up to the mind wipe. People act like she was some random citizen. She was Azem, an ex convocation member. Also, they dealt with suffering. We see this throughout the side quests on Elpis and even in Pandaemonium. So not sure where that comes from either.Also i'd say they overcame it considering they survived and summoned Zodiark...

They have "theories" of it's existence but there are no "schools", I guess that is the word I want to use, to investigate it. It's like trying to investigate, "Human Prayer". You say it's dumb to do that, sure. I'm not saying you should. But you are saying the ancients, with all their current knowledge, should of taken into consideration to experiment on Praying, Miracles, and Faith. People barely do that even in the real world and the ancients viewed Dynamis the same way.

[Lauront]

They didn't view dynamis in any way, because they weren't generally aware of it - and up until extremely recently, neither were the sundered. Hermes managed to glean some things about it, all of which was lost because of the memory wipe sequence, which Venat was spared from.

I really dont get where this "Ancients couldnt manipulate dynamis" loophole is coming from.We see them use lb's in the dungeon. We know they have a facility capable of training them in that field. Also yes, logic is good. When you build a story around specific pieces of lore, but then throw all that lore out of the window just because...rule of cool, its kind of a problem for a lot of people. I dont think its really a maybe if they'd believe her. As we saw, Emet has his duty. Whether he believes someone or not, he needs to investigate due to his duty of the star. However, he knows he was mind wiped. All Venat has to do is tell him what happened along with the events leading up to the mind wipe. People act like she was some random citizen. She was Azem, an ex convocation member. Also, they dealt with suffering. We see this throughout the side quests on Elpis and even in Pandaemonium. So not sure where that comes from either.Also i'd say they overcame it considering they survived and summoned Zodiark...

Agreed, and it is sheer nonsense that they never faced despair. Even Venat does not phrase it thus - she states they were merely spared from it for some time. Her issue was that they wouldn't be able to overcome the specific despair of their entire star dying and race dying out - despair which most sundered would easily succumb to, at the expense of their soul this time, because there is no creation magic buffer for the despair to act on. They put all their faith in the main character and a few heroes to guide them out and end up facing nothing like the devastation of the ancient world. Venat does not explain why the strive to reclaim their former life is an issue, which is based on the reports from Meteion she essentially skim-listened to at best, and instead offers platitudes about despair, at a rather bad time if the cutscene is anything to go by, stylised though it may be. The sundered are as much beings of "pure aether" as the ancients; it is more that the latter are denser, but as you mention, they had workarounds.

It's also perplexing to me why according to some, Etheirys, being much denser in aether (and one can assume therefore at producing more of it over time) than the sundered shards in its unsundered form and endowed with a primal of darkness (=propensity to render aether more active), would not be able to generate the aether to fuel the journey to Ultima Thule, but oh well, and this is putting the side the possibility of utilising dynamis through a better constructed version of what Hermes had tried to do.

[Rulakir]

On the latter point, Any given character can transform and die, but given the history of each individual scion I hardly find that the scions would just simply roll over in the face of despair. People only transformed in the face of despair. This narrative works well for less substantial characters, but for characters such as the scions? It's very anticlimactic

Meteion just didn't know what buttons to push. Thancred has been riddled with guilt about Minfilia since he found out she died after the bloody banquet. Having her appear and question where was he, why didn't he protect her, etc. I think he would've collapsed on the spot because of all the Scions he's shown to be the least able to move on from the death of a loved one.

Urianger has deceived all the Scions twice and has had to beg forgiveness both times. Any sort of illusion that the Scions don't and never will trust him again could possibly make him succumb.

Have Wilred or any of the other causalities of the Crystal Braves show up for Alphinaud and condemn him. Likewise, Tesleen and anyone else Alisaie blames herself for not being able to save.

I got nothing for Y'shtola, does she even have an Achilles' heel? :P It would probably take the death of the WoL for G'raha. Estinien would be the least susceptible to despair having not only dealt with his own, but also Nidhogg's.

I almost get the impression that they didn't want such things interfering with the narrative they wanted to go with, and so just hope people look past it.

This in a nutshell. It's why I found the writing particularly around Venat and the Ancients to be so contrived. The narrative doesn't play out in an organic way, too many elements feel forced to achieve a specific result.

[Jandor]

I really dont get where this "Ancients couldnt manipulate dynamis" loophole is coming from. We see them use lb's in the dungeon.

The justification for limit breaks being dynamis requires a rather generous interpretation of less than a line and a half of dialogue, dialogue that flies in the face of existing lore. Given your previous responses in this thread, you accepting that limit breaks are dynamis seems like quite the double standard.

Except besides those lines of dialogue, everything else points otherwise. Why wouldn’t they be able to hone their dynamis skills? We know they were able to manipulate it as they use limit breaks in the dungeon.

Limit breaks are not dynamis. Besides those lines of dialogue, everything else points otherwise.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The justification for limit breaks being dynamis requires a rather generous interpretation of less than a line and a half of dialogue, dialogue that flies in the face of existing lore. Given your previous responses in this thread, you accepting that limit breaks are dynamis seems like quite the double standard.



Limit breaks are not dynamis. Besides those lines of dialogue, everything else points otherwise.

Considering how Dynamis itself is described and how limit breaks are used, one can ascertain the two to be somewhat connected. It’s much less of a reach than it is to base an entire storyline off of one line of dialogue that has been done before. Double standards though, have been in this thread a lot, especially in regards to some peoples views on the ancients. But those don’t seem to get much of a reply i’ve noticed from some certain posters :P Irregardless though, theres much more proof pointing to this than there would be for the other matter at hand.Also, it doesnt change the fact they could still use the facility to hone their usage of dynamis, so its a moot point in the grand scheme of things. Lets not take things out of context hm?Besides i recall many many posters classifying lb's under dynamis, but now it somehow doesnt? Seems to me people are changing their opinions to fit their own narrative.

[Jandor]

Seems to me people are changing their opinions to fit their own narrative.

Well, if nothing else, you're at least right about that.

[linayar]

Doesn’t change the fact about Zodiark though, or Elidibus. I wouldn’t say Venat was always on our side technically either if we equate ourselves to original Azem, whom she had also essentially betrayed and sundered. It depends on the perspective, but even so, it’s strange that the devs themselves state what the stance is on these things but still play favorites it seems. I just wish there was equality for both sides and not favoritism heavily skewed to one side. Seems like it’s always the pretty feminine characters that get the sympathy and fanservice whereas the more demonic looking ones (zodiark) get the short end of the stick, hence my comment about their appearances.

Again, we don't have any connection to Zodiark at all. And what I said applied to Elidibus. He was going to kill us until we stopped him.

Our relationship with Azem might be explored further in the future, but for now, we are not Azem. We may never know whatever Azem might think about Venat and it does not matter.

I mean, sure, you can point out the difference in their appearances in that way, but I'd say that's irrelevant to the story. If you care about that subject, then I would agree those biases certainly exist, mostly for marketing purposes, but I also don't think it's a bad thing myself if it has no implication on the story.

Still waiting for someone to explain to me what Yshtola did this expansion that was so substantial it warranted not killing her off. Anyone?

Why would that be a factor in deciding whether to kill someone?

[Thaciscokidd]

Our relationship with Azem might be explored further in the future, but for now, we are not Azem. We may never know whatever Azem might think about Venat and it does not matter.

This is the part actually bugs me. Unless Azem shows up in the Pandemonium raid series what other reason should we meet him/her? With this arc ended, should we have any reason to deal with the unsundered?