What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Brinne]

Acting as if a life without suffering is bad or makes people weak begs what the alternative should be: should people constantly be striving to make every aspect of life worse, just for the hell of it? If there are no sources of suffering and terror, should we make our own until we eventually get used to that, and then make something even worse just to make sure there's still a prerequisite amount of horror?

I mean, this is more or less exactly what Venat did, so the answer is unironically yes, apparently?

I guess we're supposed to assume that their world had eliminated any need or worry about such things, but how or why? That's the thing: the story tells us they achieved a perfect "paradise", but glosses over exactly what that means.

I still have a strong feeling that EW came out the way it did in part because the devs were determined to make it as positive and encouraging for the player as possible, given their acknowledgment that so many these days are having a difficult time--but then when you start to think about it, the ultimate message of "things may be hard, and you're a cool and strong person for living in these conditions - but also, did you consider that if your life was better, it'd actually suck?" seems... incredibly tone-deaf.

[Brinne]

No offense but that's about as much of a reach as the excuses people make to defend Venat. It was equally implied that the newly sown life could've inherited the star too, if I'm remembering right, which is something that probably wouldn't have been said of non-sapient beings. Some might've thought that they were non-sapient, but I think the fact that there was such a division in Ancient society over whether or not the third sacrifice was justified points to the opposite. The people who had problems with how they dealt with normal Creations were in the vast, vast, vast minority, and that was because Hermes thought they were sapient to some degree.

I would have fully agreed with you based on 5.0, and that this paints a really tragic and deeply gray situation - could we fully blame the Ancients for wanting to save their loved ones from eternal purgatory even if the cost was switching in other people? - but the Q&A clarified that the sapient races that exist now are in fact the direct result of Sundered Ancients, and I would say considering the Tribes have members that are Echo-bearing, probably them as well, so we are in fact left with the implication that Zodiark's "creations" would be much like the standard creations we saw from the Ancients on Elpis: vastly majority flora and fauna.

It is bewildering, but as I've mentioned before, the information that the conflict revolved around the sacrifices essentially came from Emet-Selch. Nothing we saw from Venat herself or her faction, directly, indicates any concern about the sacrifices - if anything it contradicts it, given that Venat still thinks opposing the Convocation makes no sense to her once we relay our full understanding of events, including the sacrifices - but putting aside the very muddled and confused intent of the writers, and whatever may have changed between 5.0 and 6.0, what emerges from the text as is now is that... Emet-Selch probably misunderstood the source of the conflict. Maybe he was projecting!

[Lauront]

No offense but that's about as much of a reach as the excuses people make to defend Venat.

None taken but I strongly disagree that it is. You cannot in any source point to me what these beings are beyond very vague traits, and in the original JP dialogue of Hythlodaeus's shade, they are very strongly implied to be creations. In SHB this was murky but what EW taught us about creations more or less fills in the gaps on that point.

It was equally implied that the newly sown life could've inherited the star too, if I'm remembering right

That was Venat's faction's belief, and something they managed to convince others of. Here's the problem, though: virtually all the life forms in Elpis are animal or monstrous fauna and flora. The only beings shown to have some degree of intelligence are familiars, which the star largely does not deem fit to grant a soul since they don't meet its requirements, such that the likes of Meteion are very rare exceptions.

which is something that probably wouldn't have been said of non-sapient beings.

What of potentially sapient ones? Consider this: she had been exposed to the WoL in Elpis, as had several other ancients there, and they were introduced to them under the pretence of them being a familiar (those who later became more intimately acquainted realised this was a bit odd.) We also know some of the creations were forebears of the beast tribes, about which I am sure the WOL could fill her in the details when they blabbered about their "story". What if she drew on that experience to claim that some creations along those lines could become sapient?

Some might've thought that they were non-sapient, but I think the fact that there was such a division in Ancient society over whether or not the third sacrifice was justified points to the opposite. The people who had problems with how they dealt with normal Creations were in the vast, vast, vast minority, and that was because Hermes thought they were sapient to some degree.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. Hermes even believed non-living creations (i.e. arcane entities with no souls) had some urge to survival. That may be so - but it's a huge "so what?"

The division may have been partly influenced by that but there's other factors, such as whether the plan would work, whether the souls in Zodiark would approve etc., all of which are questions Elidibus could answer. Even Venat herself is not particularly vexed over the sacrifices themselves; only their intended purpose, which is to get their civilisation back onto track, which she believes would lead to the Plenty. So given all the above, I am unconvinced that these sacrifices constituted beings by and large which were sapient, nevermind even nearing the ancients on that front.

I have a suspicion that they did intend this conflict to be more of the focal point initially, and to have her take on Hermes's position and role (possibly tweaked after they gauged audience reception to the ancients and Emet with 5.0), but either way by EW it's not really front and centre anymore.

I would have fully agreed with you based on 5.0, and that this paints a really tragic and deeply gray situation - could we fully blame the Ancients for wanting to save their loved ones from eternal purgatory even if the cost was switching in other people? - but the Q&A clarified that the sapient races that exist now are in fact the direct result of Sundered Ancients, and I would say considering the Tribes have members that are Echo-bearing, probably them as well, so we are in fact left with the implication that Zodiark's "creations" would be much like the standard creations we saw from the Ancients on Elpis: vastly majority flora and fauna.

Indeed, it further reduces the chances of it. For whatever reason, the star now sees it fit to endow the beast tribes (some of which are hinted to be creations) with souls bearing the echo, thus implied to be those of ancients, but part of me wonders if as a result of being sundered, the star somehow reduced its criteria for what it sticks ancient souls into, especially with their original form gone. It's all rather nebulous.

It is bewildering, but as I've mentioned before, the information that the conflict revolved around the sacrifices essentially came from Emet-Selch. Nothing we saw from Venat herself or her faction, directly, indicates any concern about the sacrifices - if anything it contradicts it, given that Venat still thinks opposing the Convocation makes no sense to her once we relay our full understanding of events, including the sacrifices - but putting aside the very muddled and confused intent of the writers, and whatever may have changed between 5.0 and 6.0, what emerges from the text as is now is that... Emet-Selch probably misunderstood the source of the conflict. Maybe he was projecting!

Quite so. There is that possibility as well. If I had to guess, I think she was making use of that conflict to try stall and buy time and using a little bit of creative embellishment from her time with the WoL in Elpis as I mentioned, because based on everything we know, creations of the sort which are at least somewhat intelligent don't tend to be candidates for souls. When we see the scene in Anamnesis, it is almost exclusively focused on practical concerns, which line up with her belief that they were en route to end like the Plenty if they did not change.

*snip*

Thanks. The French version on it is a little better in that it more clearly identifies tempering as an aetheric alignment to the primal's aether. I think what they subtly did by the end of SHB is distinguish it from the usual beast tribe sort by focusing on that, and then through Tiamat, showing that the primal's nature could also affect it. Then with EW they basically confirm Zodiark's tempering is solely down to his sheer power and that an alteration in the summoning rites taught by the Ascians is attributable for the zeal in the summoners' of beast tribe primals to spread their fervour. Meanwhile, tempering is stated to have potentially corruptive effects on the summoner's identity and memory - lo and behold, those Ascians who didn't preserve these, were affected more; Emet-Selch by contrast preserves both. But the overarching conclusion from all that is that it only becomes an issue if one fails to preserve memory and identity, and only through the passage of (considerable) time.

[Ixon]

I've seen lots of confusion about whether they were or weren't and suggestions that this line might not even be true, given what we are told in EW. I have no idea. It's not too surprising when they can't keep the lore straight from one EP to the very next one.

Speaking of lore that is confusing, what's the deal with the Echo these days? I remember being told a while ago that the Echo was what was protecting me from being tempered but in EW they say it's a sparkly "blessing" that's doing it, which doesn't really add up as neither Fordola nor Zenos had said blessing and Primals didn't faze them at all.

I "thought" that Hydalyn's Blessing and Venat's Travelers Ward were one and the same? As for the Echo, I can't recall the conversation exactly, but when we were with Venat on the island using the Echo to look into Hermes and Metions past interaction, I was under the impression it was more of a skill that the Ancients could harness by looking through the soul of an individual recalling a memory, or by examination of the Aesthetical ripples in an area, and us and others were decedents of that ability. Or something like that at least. Fordola's and Zenos's were artificial, though with Zenos being a bloodline descendant of Emet-Selch, I so wonder if any Ancient power found it way to him.

[PawPaw]

I "thought" that Hydalyn's Blessing and Venat's Travelers Ward were one and the same? As for the Echo, I can't recall the conversation exactly, but when we were with Venat on the island using the Echo to look into Hermes and Metions past interaction, I was under the impression it was more of a skill that the Ancients could harness by looking through the soul of an individual recalling a memory, or by examination of the Aesthetical ripples in an area, and us and others were decedents of that ability. Or something like that at least. Fordola's and Zenos's were artificial, though with Zenos being a bloodline descendant of Emet-Selch, I so wonder if any Ancient power found it way to him.

The blessing/ward is the same, but it should not be the thing that is protecting us from tempering, as far as I am aware. This is the wiki definition of the Echo and what I understand it to have been until EW based on what I was told in game till that point.

"Those who have been "gifted", as the members of the Path of the Twelve call it, can resonate with other people's souls—and see their past, albeit not able to interfere or change it—as well as being able to speak every language in the world. The Echo protects its user from being tempered by primals, and advanced users can transcend their mortal forms."

We still don't even know what the full powers of the Echo can do, we only have a fraction of them compared to the Ancients. And yes, Venat shows us how they used their power (whatever it was called) to pull up memories at will, but the Echo does much more than that and I'm just curious why it suddenly is no longer the thing protecting us from primals when it has been all this time. Again, Fordola and Zenos both have fake Echos, which protect them from primal tempering despite NOT having the blessing/ward, whatever. So I can only assume that this protection in fact comes from the Echo, and not this ward and I have no idea why they tried to make it seem as though it did not.

[Ixon]

The blessing/ward is the same, but it should not be the thing that is protecting us from tempering, as far as I am aware. This is the wiki definition of the Echo and what I understand it to have been until EW based on what I was told in game till that point.

"Those who have been "gifted", as the members of the Path of the Twelve call it, can resonate with other people's souls—and see their past, albeit not able to interfere or change it—as well as being able to speak every language in the world. The Echo protects its user from being tempered by primals, and advanced users can transcend their mortal forms."

We still don't even know what the full powers of the Echo can do, we only have a fraction of them compared to the Ancients. And yes, Venat shows us how they used their power (whatever it was called) to pull up memories at will, but the Echo does much more than that and I'm just curious why it suddenly is no longer the thing protecting us from primals when it has been all this time. Again, Fordola and Zenos both have fake Echos, which protect them from primal tempering despite NOT having the blessing/ward, whatever. So I can only assume that this protection in fact comes from the Echo, and not this ward and I have no idea why they tried to make it seem as though it did not.

Gotcha. Yeah, idk if it was a backtracking sort of thing for the sake of story or not. Maybe our trip to learn about the twelve in the next 24-man shows some light on it.

[Lauront]

The blessing/ward is the same, but it should not be the thing that is protecting us from tempering, as far as I am aware. This is the wiki definition of the Echo and what I understand it to have been until EW based on what I was told in game till that point.

"Those who have been "gifted", as the members of the Path of the Twelve call it, can resonate with other people's souls—and see their past, albeit not able to interfere or change it—as well as being able to speak every language in the world. The Echo protects its user from being tempered by primals, and advanced users can transcend their mortal forms."

We still don't even know what the full powers of the Echo can do, we only have a fraction of them compared to the Ancients. And yes, Venat shows us how they used their power (whatever it was called) to pull up memories at will, but the Echo does much more than that and I'm just curious why it suddenly is no longer the thing protecting us from primals when it has been all this time. Again, Fordola and Zenos both have fake Echos, which protect them from primal tempering despite NOT having the blessing/ward, whatever. So I can only assume that this protection in fact comes from the Echo, and not this ward and I have no idea why they tried to make it seem as though it did not.

She mentioned it protected from aetheric corruption, but I suspect as with many things, it was synergistic in nature. Whatever it was, it taxed her to preserve it as a primal, and she could pump her power into it, so while it may have been in its basic form a "traveller's ward", it had all the trappings of a primal blessing as well. I think they were just using it as a hook so that she could sense that the WoL was a future traveller and were out of ideas of what else to use.

Arenvald also has the Echo, and it protects him as well, such that he can join in on primal fighting, including against Lakshmi. So it's definitely a trait of the Echo.

[AziraSyuren]

That was Venat's faction's belief, and something they managed to convince others of. Here's the problem, though: virtually all the life forms in Elpis are animal or monstrous fauna and flora. The only beings shown to have some degree of intelligence are familiars, which the star largely does not deem fit to grant a soul since they don't meet its requirements, such that the likes of Meteion are very rare exceptions.

I would say that "I don't think that Venat would've thought that non-Sapient beings could've inherited the star," but she drew a conclusion that was vastly more irrational shortly after, so I don't know anymore.

It's vague enough either way that it's hard to definitively say one way or another. And if Brinne's post is any indication, we're probably gonna get directly told that they weren't sapient in a later Q&A, adding yet another confusing (yet possibly interesting) layer of characterization to her that wasn't at all present in the main story.

[Lauront]

Possibly. There's a good chance it was misdirection on her part to help buy time and convince the ancients not to proceed with the plan, since her arguments without a factual backing (i.e. being upfront about Meteion etc.) would have been unlikely to convince them to stop, if the post-Elpis scene is any indication.

[PawPaw]

She mentioned it protected from aetheric corruption, but I suspect as with many things, it was synergistic in nature. Whatever it was, it taxed her to preserve it as a primal, and she could pump her power into it, so while it may have been in its basic form a "traveller's ward", it had all the trappings of a primal blessing as well. I think they were just using it as a hook so that she could sense that the WoL was a future traveller and were out of ideas of what else to use.

Arenvald also has the Echo, and it protects him as well, such that he can join in on primal fighting, including against Lakshmi.

Yeah it's just the phrasing and inconsistency that got my hackles up. This second option is straight up disregarding everything we know about the Echo and suggesting that it's not what keeps us safe at all, as she agrees that if primals enthrall by corrupting aether, then it must be her ward that's protecting us. Suddenly it's all thanks to Venat? Pfft.