What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

Based on that interview I'm not inclined to believe that Ishikawa is the problem. Ishikawa clearly leaves it open to player interpretation which is the most efficient and sensible route to take when it comes to complicated moral issues. It's Yoshi-P who has been doubling down on questioning why people like Emet better than Venat or Hermes.

[Teraq]

I'm at the point I'm just going to throw my hands up at EW. Hermes made no sense to me outside the context of being mentally unwell.

Uhh, yep... I think Hermes being understandable to the player is like... an agree-to-disagree kind of thing. It has to be, because I've seen enough people say his character made so much sense to them and that he was the most human, and I just can't assume these people are lying. As soon as the guy started expressing anxiety at the thought of someone immortal peacefully ending their life, I was befuddled. What's the deal here? The whole "meaning of life" motivation is something that seemingly flies way over my head because this is honestly not a question I've ever asked myself. As far as I've always been concerned, there is no meaning other than what you make of the journey, dude, all right, let's move on now. Aliens are dead? ...And? I'm sorry but I can hardly bother to give a damn when we don't know how much or how little these aliens were comparable to Ancients at all from the couple of lines we got; at best, you should take lessons from them when applicable in context.

Couldn't understand that, and couldn't relate to the animal-rights-bleeding-heart deal, though intellectually I'll concede there are things to discuss about the creation (and deletion) of sentient entities, okay. But how he snapped at the Charybdis guy who just wanted to fix the concept for future iterations of the animal? That made literally zero sense to me. As for the Lykaones... jfc, Hermes, take a break and consider quitting from this job you obviously cannot handle. I know, dude, I have had job-related depression due to empathy myself, and guess what, I took a step back from it all and had to face some things, but maybe there is no HR whatsoever in Elpis, or no therapists anywhere. A fair point, if we're going with Ancients being stupid and having no common sense.

As for going from "nooo we kill animals" to "ok meteion you can kill us all lol after all we kill animals don't we", knowing full well we've come from the future to tell them this is literally going to kill everything, including the poor animals, I want to say this only makes sense if we identify him as the finest edgelord around.

[ReynTime]

Based on that interview I'm not inclined to believe that Ishikawa is the problem. Ishikawa clearly leaves it open to player interpretation which is the most efficient and sensible route to take when it comes to complicated moral issues. It's Yoshi-P who has been doubling down on questioning why people like Emet better than Venat or Hermes.

My point is more that it doesn't matter what they want to say in the interviews. The game picked the choices for us and that will most certainly make most people lean towards how the characters react in the end.

[Lauront]

As I recall, Yoshida said they intended for Shadowbringers to flesh out the motives of the Ascians, but it was Ishikawa specifically who wanted to "humanize" them, and also her who had the idea to have Emet travel with the party so the player would grow attached to him and give more weight to his perspective. Yoshida was actually skeptical of that at first. And he was definitely pretty baffled about the overwhelming response to him in the space immediately after Shadowbringers - I recall him having a tone along the lines of "okay, but, he's killed so many people...?" and "I'm surprised so many people took him at his word?" and wondering if the giant Talos scene was the reason so many people were praising Shadowbringers's story? He did come around to Emet later, and that the majority of the playerbase liked him and wanted to honor his wishes, but there was definitely a learning curve involved.

I don't doubt that - I think she must've helped him to some degree in formulating answers to some of the interviews on that (frankly, I'd need to go over them to see how his thinking changed... which is a bit more effort required than I am motivated to put in at this stage given my views on the plot ), it's more by this point I'd have expected him to go in with that understanding, particularly since that long interview he gave in Famitsu, where he explained Emet-Selch's disappointment with what he saw in Azem's sundered shard, seemed to hit the nail on the head from my POV on why a being of the kind Emet-Selch is would be struck by grief when confronted by the fragmented remnants of their old friend, only to realise it's not the same person, once more dashing his hopes. On-going learning curve, perhaps.

I'm not being really serious, but a friend joked that with the approach to Venat post-game, she wouldn't be surprised if they just quietly saved the Ancients in an alternate timeline in a Lodestone sidestory and basically never speak of Venat again. I-it maybe doesn't feel entirely implausible at this point...

I could see them doing it, in all honesty. It is the one potential upside I see to the time travel route they employed. I was a bit surprised that they committed to Venat's soul being gobbled up in the process. My concern was that she'd be returning in some facet... but seems not.

Uhh, yep... I think Hermes being understandable to the player is like... an agree-to-disagree kind of thing. It has to be, because I've seen enough people say his character made so much sense to them and that he was the most human, and I just can't assume these people are lying..

Yeah, I've seen that point made as well, and it does not really make much sense to me. As Fandaniel, he separates himself both from the ancients and sundered for clinging to life, as he puts it. I'd say that sort of existential dread he exhibits is an outlier thing amongst humans too. Heartily agree with the rest of your well-worded post.

[tokinokanatae]

This is the complaint thread, so I’ll keep it brief, but even though people are saying Hermes is not understandable, you are able to clearly pinpoint the reason he decided to judge humanity’s worth. (I’m not saying you agree with it or find it sympathetic, only that you understand what the game is presenting about him.)

It’s not as though he is presented as someone who loves the status quo and then flips when he discovers the rest of the known universe is dead. Hermes is presented as emotionally unstable from when we get to know him as Fandaniel and his motive remains fixed through ShB and EW. This is not a judgment of his quality as a character, just the way he is written.

[PawPaw]

And he was definitely pretty baffled about the overwhelming response to him in the space immediately after Shadowbringers - I recall him having a tone along the lines of "okay, but, he's killed so many people...?" and "I'm surprised so many people took him at his word?" and wondering if the giant Talos scene was the reason so many people were praising Shadowbringers's story? He did come around to Emet later, and that the majority of the playerbase liked him and wanted to honor his wishes, but there was definitely a learning curve involved.

This is so baffling to me. How could anyone who had been involved with the evolution of that story come away with the certainty that Emet-Selch would read as an unrelatable, 1-dimensional villain and that the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to empathize with him in spite of his past deeds? Did...did he read the script? I know that there are those who dislike him or don't love him, but the guy's got personality and his story is tragic as hell. People tend to naturally gravitate towards those kinds of characters. There's a reason he's so damn popular and it boggles the mind that this all came as a surprise to the Producer of the game.

Also, "okay, but, he's killed so many people...?". Really? But I am supposed to unequivocally be in love with Venat when she's killed so many more? Why did he seem lost at the idea that she might not be universally loved during the Live Letter? Shouldn't I, by his own reasoning, not love people who kill so many, no matter what their justification may be?

[Skyborne]

This is so baffling to me. How could anyone who had been involved with the evolution of that story come away with the certainty that Emet-Selch would read as an unrelatable, 1-dimensional villain and that the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to empathize with him in spite of his past deeds? Did...did he read the script? I know that there are those who dislike him or don't love him, but the guy's got personality and his story is tragic as hell. People tend to naturally gravitate towards those kinds of characters. There's a reason he's so damn popular and it boggles the mind that this all came as a surprise to the Producer of the game.

I mean... this is also the same person who was surprised that cute-looking moon bunny nostalgia references were popular. Anyway, it's all just so messy I can't even blame Hermes for anything. Perhaps he was really just a gigachad who saw how this story was going to go and tried to stop it.

[Theodric]

Well, the next Live Letter is set for the 1st of April. So at least it isn't too long to wait for further news surrounding 6.1 and whatever it's due to bring with it.

[Ixon]

Well, the next Live Letter is set for the 1st of April.

This is where we will learn the sundering and all of the story from ARR to now was just an early April Fools prank.

[Rulakir]

Opinion poll time! :P Are you more confident, less confident, unchanged, or undecided about Ishikawa possibly (I'm not sure it's been confirmed) having done the outline for the next 10 years?

I'd have to say undecided. I wish they'd talked about Venat. Ishikawa admitting despite Hermes being her favorite character she thought 80% of players would hate him indicates she has her finger on the pulse more than Yoshi-P does, but without knowing the same about Venat it's hard to say.

I'm significantly less confident regarding Yoshi-P. I don't know how much influence he has in the story, but I'm as baffled by his responses to things as he is to ours.