What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Kyohei]

Which she knows and which factored into her plan, as well as obscuring the reasons for, following her own genocide of her people.

She did not simply genocide them, she made her best to completely erase them from the records as to leave no traces they ever existed in the first place. She even transmitted actually false informations to her chosens like Minfillia and urged them to destroy all ascians. At least that's how it looks now. When they decided a change in ascians story in 3.0 they should've taken this into account.
When looking at the broad story from 2.0 to 6.0, I fail to understand how people can view Venat/Hydaelyn in a good light, much less appreciate her. But then again, in 2.0 I already found it irking when Minfillia was dead set on destroying ascians despite knowing nothing about them.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I don't know if I'd use the word "grooming", since the Ascians do attack before we get a crystal, as I recall, and are very pro blowing up Shards and instigating mass genocide. Not exactly a bad idea to warn "Hey, watch out for Lahabrea in particular", considering his characterization in ARR and HW is basically just "Muahaha, chaos!" on repeat to the point that Elidibus, Emet-Selch, and Nabriales all think of him as a lunatic.

Regarding Venat's characterization, I'm sure she was always meant to be a heroine figure, at least from the moment her name was chosen. She's named after the Venat from XII that opposes the rest of her race that's trying to manipulate mankind to sinister ends. Granted, while that Venat does have good intentions and wants mankind to live free, they're more of an anti-villain than a full on hero.

I’m not sure where people get this from, the Occuria weren’t really sinister. They left mankind to their own ends ftmp outside of when mankind was in danger of causing mass extinction of themselves. Then they would intervene. Venat opposed them and manipulated people, causing mass war,strife, and death in her wake. Pretty similar to 14 venat and in 12’s case, it’s deemed what she did was by no means a good thing as her actions led to the eventual end of magic.

The first time a tea party came off as really bad was in 5.3. Id only think I have ever been angry about the story in this game, but 5.3 set me off. Elidibus being built up and the rushed out the door was stupid, the conversation afterward with the scions irritated me, I hated the scene going to the crystal tower, and I couldn't enjoy the animation because I was beyond irritated at that point.
I went through the entirety of Endwalker with a hood on. People would remark about the WoL's expression for certain scenes and I saw none of it, and I'm glad. I could imagine any expression I wanted and to me my character had resting BF all the way through..

I’m happy i’m not the only one that was upset at this. This major character built up over expansions just one and done within 2 patches and then there’s just a tea party after as if we didn’t just exterminate an entire race of people??? Honestly all the writers have shown me from 5.3+ onwards is that they’re either lazy or just can’t handle finishing a product to the end. Not just the writers i suppose but the devs as well considering Yoshi P just seemed done with this arc which is like, i get it, but also you have an obligation to see it through not just give up. They continue to push these themes of suffering and not giving up etc but isn’t it funny how they don’t apply it to their own work and writing process? :P

[Rulakir]

Regarding Venat's characterization, I'm sure she was always meant to be a heroine figure, at least from the moment her name was chosen. She's named after the Venat from XII that opposes the rest of her race that's trying to manipulate mankind to sinister ends. Granted, while that Venat does have good intentions and wants mankind to live free, they're more of an anti-villain than a full on hero.

Venat in FFXII was a villain as well in my eyes. Now that I think about it, I suppose they weren't all that different. Both had a misguided ideology they felt would benefit mankind more than the status quo and were Hell bent on seeing it done regardless of the amount of bloodshed it caused.

That actually started earlier in 5.0 after Hades fight, where you're greeted by Alphinaud with a smiling face saying "Emet-Selch is no more!"

I hated that as well. Meanwhile, after the Hydaelyn trial we get Alisaie saying, "No! This can't be happening!" and I'm like "Ding dong, the witch is dead." :P

I read in Japan it's made more clear that Emet is a hero, supposedly the lyrics of the song are "one hero brings shadow, one hero brings light". I think player viewpoints depend a lot on who they sympathized with and I found the Ancients more sympathetic than the sundered, particularly the Scions who are all rather privileged. Ultima Thule fell flat for me not because of the fake out deaths, but because except for G'raha and Estinien none of them had experienced despair on a relatable level for me. The Ancients were (and still are) the original victims, who endured an apocalypse, survived it, only to be split apart and forever live as shadows of their former selves.

[HisShadowX]

• The mighty Zodiark, which has been build up as this mighty(evil) entity over several expansions, turns out to be nothing but filler trash for the first Endwalker trial
• The true cause of the Final Days is a pet-project from an ancient which goes mad after observing countless dead world and possibly causing the death of several world by projecting negative emotions unto them, and is thus dead-set on bringing despair to every world, upon which said ancient goes mad and is now letting her run her course to test humanity if they can withstand/fight despair
• Venat, who hasn't had her memory wiped + still remembers you from being in Elpis, quite apparently doesn't lift a finger to learn about Dynamis herself or to mobilize the other ancients to end Meteion then and there, and instead chooses to turn herself into Hydaelyn, sunder the world and the inhabitants, thereby forcing them to live with and face despair and gambling that their resilience against despair might be enough to face Meteion one day

Really?
This is the best SQ could do in terms of story after ShB?

Zodiark is not complete so this is understandable. Also Zodiark lost its heart or rather Engine which now is Hermes reincarnation.

If anything I was more insulted by the fact they copied off of Aliens and used a Bioorganic super weapon that goes loose and causes death and destruction and the fact the superweapon is a KAWAII Anime Girl.

Then I had to think about it and was Yoshi P trying to make the bad guy his fanbase and their deserves. As you know the weebs love their anime girl pillows and such and are known as massive depressives like Hermes. Think of the Anime KAWAII girl as a real doll for for the weebs and they pretty much state a depressed soul will be like that no matter who they are reincarnated as. Its sort like of when Bill Shatner of Star Trek started to attack is fans.

[Kyohei]

I second this, agree with all. Y'shtola who usually brings a more critical view on every situation really was lacking in Endwalker. No critical point on Venat despite there being lots, and she just brushed away the solid point Eas were making. The response of the Eas were valid too, she really can't view the universe like them and put her in their shoes as she isn't immortal. I would argue that Thancred at least kind of experienced despair too on a certain degree, he used to live as a thief to be able to eat before being taken in by Louisoix and he lost a daughter. Of course it's nowhere near struggling to save a world for a 100 years like G'Raha or experiencing the suffering of Nidhogg like Estinien though.
Also I didn't know there were slightly different lyrics for the Japanese version, any idea how to access it?

[Rulakir]

She did not simply genocide them, she made her best to completely erase them from the records as to leave no traces they ever existed in the first place. She even transmitted actually false informations to her chosens like Minfillia and urged them to destroy all ascians. At least that's how it looks now. When they decided a change in ascians story in 3.0 they should've taken this into account.
When looking at the broad story from 2.0 to 6.0, I fail to understand how people can view Venat/Hydaelyn in a good light, much less appreciate her. But then again, in 2.0 I already found it irking when Minfillia was dead set on destroying ascians despite knowing nothing about them.

This. Venat under a modern lens is an extremist and one of the worst kind because she sought to eradicate her race in favor of creating a new one she believed would be superior.

Minfilia was a zealot. I love how they portrayed Hydaelyn telling her to kill herself and Minfilia obliging as her acting of her own free will. It was cultist behavior. Thancred, despite his complete inability to move on from Minfilia, is never once upset with Hydaelyn about this either. Even when he finds out Hydaelyn is a primal in 5.0 he refuses to believe any negative implications that has for Minfilia. The 3.2 artwork also shows Minfilia chained to the Mothercrystal. Minfilia herself says that until she offered herself up as a vessel she was alone in the aetherial sea. I'm always baffled by the ones who say there was no evidence Hydaelyn wasn't good when there's a long history of her being shady even without the Ascian perspective.

[Lauront]

She did not simply genocide them, she made her best to completely erase them from the records as to leave no traces they ever existed in the first place. She even transmitted actually false informations to her chosens like Minfillia and urged them to destroy all ascians. At least that's how it looks now. When they decided a change in ascians story in 3.0 they should've taken this into account.
When looking at the broad story from 2.0 to 6.0, I fail to understand how people can view Venat/Hydaelyn in a good light, much less appreciate her. But then again, in 2.0 I already found it irking when Minfillia was dead set on destroying ascians despite knowing nothing about them.

I'm trying to keep it short by not reading out her whole rap sheet.

[Lauront]

Venat in FFXII was a villain as well in my eyes. Now that I think about it, I suppose they weren't all that different. Both had a misguided ideology they felt would benefit mankind more than the status quo and were Hell bent on seeing it done regardless of the amount of bloodshed it caused.



I hated that as well. Meanwhile, after the Hydaelyn trial we get Alisaie saying, "No! This can't be happening!" and I'm like "Ding dong, the witch is dead." :P

I read in Japan it's made more clear that Emet is a hero, supposedly the lyrics of the song are "one hero brings shadow, one hero brings light". I think player viewpoints depend a lot on who they sympathized with and I found the Ancients more sympathetic than the sundered, particularly the Scions who are all rather privileged. Ultima Thule fell flat for me not because of the fake out deaths, but because except for G'raha and Estinien none of them had experienced despair on a relatable level for me. The Ancients were (and still are) the original victims, who endured an apocalypse, survived it, only to be split apart and forever live as shadows of their former selves.

I think it's clear in the EN version as well but it's tucked away more, e.g. in the trial blurb:

Hearken unto a requiem for a hero fallen. A man who lived a thousand thousand of our lives clinging desperately to faint hope, never shirking his sworn duty to his long-lost brethren. A man who stood proud and did avow his true name on the threshold of the battle that would see him fall to his rival─the light to quench his shadow. Borrowing liberally from the funereal rites of the Night's Blessed, the minstreling wanderer weaves an elegy in that hero's honor─the tragic-yet-triumphant tale of a man and a battle that ne'er shall be forgotten.

Nonetheless, they don't shy away from calling him a "villain" etc. in interviews, even as they claim it's down to perspective (i.e. who is "right" is down to whose side stands to benefit etc.) so if she's meant to be judged in the same light as SHB Emet, would they refer to her as such as well? There's a disconnect in a lot of what is said, both with Emet-Selch and Elidibus, and how the characters themselves behave after, as well as the degree of pushback they get - Venat/Hydaelyn gets next to none. With Emet-Selch, quite understandably all the Scions stand against him, and with Elidibus you're even repeating some of Emet's lines. Whereas with her, there's just this tacit acceptance of everything she's said and done - I guess because they weren't the ones directly impacted by it, and Emet apparently had already resigned himself to passing on by Ultima Thule.

Overall, nearly everything about it annoyed me, including the lack of curiosity in our character about their ancient self, plus the persistent vacant stares when addressed by Emet-Selch and Hyth (although at least there's an apology to Elidibus), as well as Y'shtola's brain going AWOL.

[Kyohei]

Thancred, despite his complete inability to move on from Minfilia, is never once upset with Hydaelyn about this either. Even when he finds out Hydaelyn is a primal in 5.0 he refuses to believe any negative implications that has for Minfilia.

That's indeed unsettling, one would think he would've had some kind of spite but nope never. I suppose it's to serve the idea of "she walked the path she thought just and I shall support it", because that's what scions do right? They embrace and support any decisions one of theirs make in the end.

I'm trying to keep it short by not reading out her whole rap sheet.

Fair enough, it's indeed so long it might become tiring to write everything all the time.

[Kyohei]

Nonetheless, they don't shy away from calling him a "villain" etc. in interviews, even as they claim it's down to perspective (i.e. who is "right" is down to whose side stands to benefit etc.) so if she's meant to be judged in the same light as SHB Emet, would they refer to her as such as well? There's a disconnect in a lot of what is said, both with Emet-Selch and Elidibus, and how the characters themselves behave after, as well as the degree of pushback they get - Venat/Hydaelyn gets next to none. With Emet-Selch, quite understandably all the Scions stand against him, and with Elidibus you're even repeating some of Emet's lines. Whereas with her, there's just this tacit acceptance of everything she's said and done - I guess because they weren't the ones directly impacted by it, and Emet apparently had already resigned himself to passing on by Ultima Thule.

Overall, nearly everything about it annoyed me, including the lack of curiosity in our character about their ancient self, plus the persistent vacant stares when addressed by Emet-Selch and Hyth (although at least there's an apology to Elidibus), as well as Y'shtola's brain going AWOL.

Pretty much. The lack of option to voice different opinions (even though it ofc doesn't impact the story) for our character, and the lack of meaningful actions/reactions when needed are what made it quite unbearable to go through.
And despite everything that was said and thought Emet-Selch *whose death is welcomed in ShB* is still depicted as the villain while Venat *whose death is mourned* is a hero and has a minion that makes sure you know it.