What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Skyborne]

It's a little depressing to admit that I feel a lot less excited about what's coming in the future MSQ after the LL Q&A gave more insight into the thought process of the writers and that they basically didn't expect people to do deep thinking about the story and that they're willing to just drop plot threads on a whim if they decide they don't want to work with them anymore.

Trying to theorycraft about anything that isn't explicitly being hint-hinted by Yoshi or the writers themselves seems like a potential waste of time now in light of those developments.

I've been in a few lore chats that have gone into deep conspiracy theory-style guesses about lore, and the speculation in itself can be a fun timewaster, even if it ends up being 99% wrong... although the delay from ShB -> EW was so long I grew tired of it and dipped out. That Yoshi/the team apparently were surprised that people were wondering about the sundered Ascians (but they themselves have come up with true names/identities for all of them) was kind of 'huh'?

On the plus side, the dissatisfaction has led to me working on my own original stuff more. Even if no one else sees it but me.

[Rulakir]

With regard to that scenario, we can't say how they would've reacted had they been told the truth, since Venat withheld it on her belief that her people couldn't change - it's only with that in mind that they frame it as a probable outcome.

I'm reminded of a Mythbusters episode where they proved that both Jack and Rose could have floated on the door at the end of Titanic. James Cameron said it didn't matter, the script said Jack had to die. This is my fear with the Ancients, that they were always going to be destroyed because that's the singular vision the writer(s) had for them and they were only ever meant to be a plot device for the sundered. The fact that they don't seem interested in devoting any more attention to them (despite being the foundation of the world's lore) adds to that theory, which is a shame since the Ancients' history was the most interesting arc to come out of FFXIV since HW.

Whatever new story they have going forward had better be worth it.

[Pyro2hell3]

I kind of got the impression that the Ancients where a society where questioning the status quo or even wondering if it could even change was heavily discouraged. So after Metion nuked the status quo out of existence all that matter was restoring it. and they' dtoss the entire world into the fire for a plan with any chance or doing no matter how low

[Lauront]

I'd disagree with that. They saw debating as something to be encouraged and participated in it. Hardly a position you get to by discouraging questioning the status quo. What they did discourage was certain types of flaunting of differences, hence the masks and robes. Any species that is used to a measure of stability (humans included) will find the kind of disruption they faced (near total death of their star) very difficult and will attempt to restore things to how they were. It doesn't take much self-reflection to realise we do that too, and would certainly do it in the shoes of the Amaurotines, if we had similar measures to do so at our disposal.

[Pyro2hell3]

I have 2 theories for why the timeline was able to be altered successfully in shadow bringers. Theory one It only worked because there it involve two worlds with their own history i.e there was already 2 separate timelines to begin with. Theory 2 the universe noticed it was warrior of light themselves time traveling and rewrote all the rules of time on the spot out of spite because it hates us

[Rulakir]

I didn't want to make a new thread for it, but I've been thinking about how the 8UC (or 'original') timeline would turn out for the Ancients. The WoL is dead, Emet & Elidibus are still alive so Fandaniel can't carry through his plans, and Hydaelyn is further weakened. Let's assume the Ascians meet their rejoining goals. You think Hydaelyn would go for a round 2 sundering or finally concede that she needs to tell them the truth to deal with the still present danger of Meteion? Would they trust anything she says at that point?

Course, the WoL can still be reincarnated and the Ascians are unlikely to reach their goal before the WoL is in fighting shape to stand against them (assuming that the Source recovers from the 8UC and that Hydaelyn has the strength to make the WoL her champion again).

I also can't figure out how to reconcile the time loop with the original timeline. I started to think it could be delayed with a reincarnated WoL making the trip a few decades later, but there's no Crystal Tower in the 8UC anymore so it'd have to be a different method (if one exists).

Maybe I should just headcanon that the WoL's final act before death is to use the CT one last time to go to Amaurot, tell the trio (including themselves) everything, and hope for the best. :P I'll forever be annoyed that they couldn't have just had Elpis branch into an alternate timeline where everyone is saved and Venat remains charming instead of turning into Hermes 2.0.

[Skyborne]

I didn't want to make a new thread for it, but I've been thinking about how the 8UC (or 'original') timeline would turn out for the Ancients. The WoL is dead, Emet & Elidibus are still alive so Fandaniel can't carry through his plans, and Hydaelyn is further weakened. Let's assume the Ascians meet their rejoining goals. You think Hydaelyn would go for a round 2 sundering or finally concede that she needs to tell them the truth to deal with the still present danger of Meteion? Would they trust anything she says at that point?

Course, the WoL can still be reincarnated and the Ascians are unlikely to reach their goal before the WoL is in fighting shape to stand against them (assuming that the Source recovers from the 8UC and that Hydaelyn has the strength to make the WoL her champion again).

I also can't figure out how to reconcile the time loop with the original timeline. I started to think it could be delayed with a reincarnated WoL making the trip a few decades later, but there's no Crystal Tower in the 8UC anymore so it'd have to be a different method (if one exists).

Maybe I should just headcanon that the WoL's final act before death is to use the CT one last time to go to Amaurot, tell the trio (including themselves) everything, and hope for the best. :P I'll forever be annoyed that they couldn't have just had Elpis branch into an alternate timeline where everyone is saved and Venat remains charming instead of turning into Hermes 2.0.

With the circumstances being different and not on the First, I wonder how Emet-Selch would react to meeting a freshly reincarnated 9/14ths (or further) WoL... in any case, if Hydaelyn truly cared about Mankind(tm) I'm sure she would be forced to produce the truth when Elidibus gets back into the Zodiark suit and swoops on in. Then there's the matter of the Mothercrystal and what they could do with it.

...

I find myself thinking about it again and again months later, but it is pretty ironic that she had much better PR in Shadowbringers... the ascian-focused expac. She seemed like a caring nice person who respected the Convocation, but wanted to do what she felt was right (stopping the controversial 3rd sacrifice), and the Sundering was plausibly an accident born of her conflict with Zodiark. An accident that she managed to make the best of. And there was no reason to suspect that she was involved with the Final Days... I never asked for this, but I suppose fate was sealed when she was named Venat of all things.

[PawPaw]

I have missed the meat of this discussion and I blame that on my not catching the flaws in the story of EW the first time through and needing several weeks of thinking it over to realize just how messed up it was. I did want to say that I appreciate that there is a safe space here for people to actually say what they think about EW without risk of being completely bullied and harassed to hell and back (unlike Reddit or Twitter). I hope it's not too late to leave my two cents here.

Realizing that the event that killed the Ancients was preventable simply enraged me. We meet Venat who seems very cool and likes to spit fresh lines like "Nothing is Impossible" and "If it could be imagined, it could be done"; so I stupidly believed that holy hell, maybe we could make a difference here! If they knew what was going to happen, maybe I could save my friends! So we break all the rules of time-travel and I tell them about their future! And Emet-Selch gets upset, which is not surprising, but they ultimately believe me! And then some really dumb stuff involving memory wiping happens and the only people left with knowledge of the future events are myself and Venat, but it’s ok because she would never give up, right?! Not this person who believes that nothing is insurmountable?!

She destroys her entire race because of her own convictions. She doesn’t even give them a chance to defend themselves or find a solution that doesn’t involve drastic measures. She seems to hold the world we tell her about as some sort of idealistic pinnacle when, in reality, Eorzea is shit. The First is shit. The endless pain and suffering is shit. And she does all this for the sake of some person that she knows for half a day and who may have died the second they returned from Elpis. She has NO IDEA. And she KILLS HER WORLD for this off-chance at pawning the fight off onto this person 12k years in the future. She creates seven worlds that she knows will be destroyed. She makes mass murderers out of innocent people. She manipulates us every step of the way and none of this is reflected in the game.

While my only option when interacting with the big, bad Ascians is to frown and let them know that I am going to punch their face in, no matter how relatable they are, my only options when dealing with Hydaelyn are the complete opposite. Oh, mommy is sad that she has waterfalls of blood running from her hands? It’s ok, let’s tell her how much we appreciate her! Just in case you didn’t get the message, here’s a minion telling you again that Venat is really a hero! No, I’m sorry but she’s absolutely not. Not to me. To me she’s a subversive traitor who’s responsible for the deaths and endless suffering of billions of people. Second only in body count to Hermes. She allows my friends to die, allows one to suffer for millennia and bloody his hands, she kills my original self. She’s unforgivable and I’m glad she can never return. She doesn’t deserve to.

[AnaviAnael]

The writers want to tell us that the ancients were doomed to fail and end up like the residents of The Plenty.

I argue that now the world is on a course to end up like the first two areas of The Dead Ends.

[PawPaw]

I find myself thinking about it again and again months later, but it is pretty ironic that she had much better PR in Shadowbringers... the ascian-focused expac. She seemed like a caring nice person who respected the Convocation, but wanted to do what she felt was right (stopping the controversial 3rd sacrifice), and the Sundering was plausibly an accident born of her conflict with Zodiark. An accident that she managed to make the best of. And there was no reason to suspect that she was involved with the Final Days... I never asked for this, but I suppose fate was sealed when she was named Venat of all things.

I've never actually played any of the previous FF titles so I wasn't even aware that Venat was originally an antagonist in another game until afterwards. I wish I'd had that knowledge going in, maybe I would have been a bit more prepared. I know a lot of people at the time had theories that Hydaelyn would end up being the Big Bad behind everything but I hadn't seen any real reason to dislike her or distrust her even after what we learned in ShB; I had faith that everything that she'd done, while sad, must have ultimately been because there was no other way and for the greater good and that I just hadn't gotten the full story yet. After all, I'd only had the antagonist's word for it, right? Haha, silly me