What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lauront]

You literally could not save the Ancients and even if you could it would undo everything that happened after the Final Days which would have meant the Source and even all the shards wouldn't exist.

Yes, not like an AU formed out of the world doomed to the 8UC or anything.

The ending would've been better if the writers took a page from Final Fantasy 6's midpoint. Have all the worlds converge into one, genocide and all, kill off all the Scions, and leave our characters as the survivors in a shattered, but whole, world. The fallout of such an event, and with us pinned as the cause by the other survivors, would make the next story arc a truly interesting reboot. Not to mention our characters would have to live with the knowledge that our actions caused the death of all their friends. The surviving city states from all the old, sundered worlds would quickly vie for power and limited resources.

Plus it could allow the designers to change all the classes and dungeons in a fresh and interesting way. There's really no reason a post-merging game couldn't have different class designs branching off of the "previous world" magic and martial systems.

Very interesting indeed but probably far more than they'd be willing to chew off at this point.

[Fiel_Tana]

I don't consider "fan service" watching your favorite characters get effed over, while your character has no power to do anything about it, and then treats the person responsible as some sort of benevolent goddess.

This!

The inability to even attempt saving the ancients and their world along with the expectation that we view Venat / Hydaelyn as heroic saviour of the world removes all player agency.

I honestly thought during Elpis maybe we'd get a timeline split, conveniently split the world into pre and post graphics and game engine updates, or something completely unexpected. I was so excited to see where it was heading! I loved every second of Elpis… right until we get shunted off into our time that despite Venat warning ‘may have changed’ (my excitement at that moment was ENORMOUS!), didn't at all. A gut-wrenching realisation that nothing we do matters in the end.

This closed timeloop also implicates our WoL in the original end of days (and our past self!). What would have happened had we not told Venat? If we'd stayed behind longer re-tell our story to Emet and Hythlo so they understood what they’d be up against? Or talked to Hermes helping him see he’s not alone, the world is worth saving, help him towards that path?

Originally I loved the idea of Azem and seeing what this new info would bring, but now I wonder why even add Azem into the story? Why make them close friends with Hythlodeus and Emet? Why have Azem as a character exist as a "past self" at all?

Azem knew something terrible is happening, knew about Zodiark, disagreed and left the convocation. They knew Venat was opposed and planning something... and Azem did what? Played Mah-jong while the world burnt? Ate some grapes? At best, had a plan but failed? At worst is ok with their world and all lives (including their best friends!) ending? For a story that leans on the Power of Friendship™ and winning against impossible odds with perseverance... how does any of that make sense? Why tie our WoL to this?

Having the 'us' that is "Azem" and the 'us' that went to Elpis fail and/or not try to save them (not once but twice!), without an option for the player to state anything other than undying love and acceptance of Hydaelyn and her decision takes away player agency over our WoL. No chance to even offer a “…” or snarky reply. It feels terrible!

There’ve been many points I disagreed with the WoLs actions, but it was written so players can understand / headcannon reasons behind those actions. Even now, weeks after finishing the story, I feel a dissatisfaction with the story and disconnect my WoL that only deepens as time passes.

I had hope for Azem’s story being told in Panda or something to address this, but the live-letter has mostly killed that hope off.

Hear… Feel… Think… but NOT too much as to form your own feelings or moral opinions about any characters or plotpoints? :/

[Kyohei]

It does leave bitter taste to get to know a character, appreciate them even but all that knowing they are all actually dead and that's pretty much it (meanwhile the scions get to revive from all and any kind of situations but that's another story). One could even push and say this is borderline malicious.

Another thing is, making Hydaelyn the ultimate mastermind behind pretty much everything happening doesn't do justice to "finding one's own purpose" as it only gives off the feeling of being a manipulated pawn since day one.

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

Man, I sure do love it when they decide to "subvert expectations!" It always has an interesting result.

I remember back when they subverted all of our expectations so much back in 2019 when they surprised the anime-loving playerbase of FFXIV with Hrothgar instead of the male Viera people were expecting and the JP fanfest crowd proceeded to actually boo the trailer. Similarly, they strongly teased the moon only for us to get no more than a half-hour with Zodiark who people have wanted to see since forever and instead made it into a Looney Toons cartoon with the loporrits.

Can we pretty please return to the Heavensward era back when twists actually paid off in the end and characters were actually believable? Or is Heavensward too simple of a story? Because fighting dragons sure sounds a lot more appealing than another war of morals right about now.

I don't see how the Loporrits section was much different than the segment of Heavensward where the Moogles annoy your party with pointless chores, to the point that not only does Estinien get angry about the time wasting, but you get several options to bully Moogles in future content in reaction to that first segment.

If anything, the Loporrits have more immediate importance to the story presented (while also reinforcing the lesson that will be taught to Meteion down the line) and are also a needed moment of levity between all of the suicide in Garlemald and the upcoming bleakness in Thavnair.

[KageTokage]

I was really looking forward to the truths we'd learn about the time of the Ancients amounting to more then "Almost everything happened because we're stuck in a causal loop"; that their society was definitively heading in an unsustainable direction that warranted the sundering and the fact that it made us capable of fighting Meteion more of a happy coincidence then something that had been planned all along.

A miraculously preserved present day Elpis that told its tales of the past via Echo visions and ancient records could've still fulfilled its needed purpose in the narrative of isolating the source of the Final Days with the only real loss being that we wouldn't have been able to spend any personal time with the Ancients.

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

Time travel stories tend to feel a little eh to me the more ripple effects there are, because I nitpick too much and frustrate myself. Things like "We have the Blessing of Light because Venat saw us with it, so we have it." feel like circular logic and that bothers me, even if I conceptually understand the idea behind a bootstrap paradox.

Personally, I wasn't bothered too much by Elpis, though I will admit that reading some other posts here did make me think over some missed opportunities. For example, Azem being split between working with their mentor on Team Hydaelyn or their two best friends on Team Zodiark. Maybe there will be a "Tale from the End" or something addressing that, since I think the question was raised to Yoshi-P.

[aveyond-dreams]

I don't see how the Loporrits section was much different than the segment of Heavensward where the Moogles annoy your party with pointless chores, to the point that not only does Estinien get angry about the time wasting, but you get several options to bully Moogles in future content in reaction to that first segment.

If anything, the Loporrits have more immediate importance to the story presented (while also reinforcing the lesson that will be taught to Meteion down the line) and are also a needed moment of levity between all of the suicide in Garlemald and the upcoming bleakness in Thavnair.

Moment of levity? Wow if only Endwalker wasn't full to the brim with those. Anyway, the star of the moon should have been Zodiark. Not the Loporrits. End of discussion.

The Heavensward moogles may have been a nuisance but they certainly didn't torment us for as long as these rabbits did, and they didn't take the place of someone as crucial to the plot and core of the game as, idk, the main big bad that's been hyped up since 2013?

I sure remember how in FFX once we got to Zanarkand, the party decided to have a sing-along and played bliztball-oh wait instead of that the plot actually stayed serious as was appropriate given the gravity of the situation. Much how it should have in this case considering that the WoL had just killed the being responsible for warding off the final days.

[Kyohei]

A miraculously preserved present day Elpis that told its tales of the past via Echo visions and ancient records could've still fulfilled its needed purpose in the narrative of isolating the source of the Final Days with the only real loss being that we wouldn't have been able to spend any personal time with the Ancients.

Elpis msq part and the quests were very pleasant to me, but it is hard not to have a second look at them and think the whole time travel might have been a mistake altogether. Most of the inconsistencies stem from things happening in Elpis and the time travel concept itself. Closed loops especially, are seldom enjoyable in stories. When using time travel there are so many variables to control in order to make sure it won't leave a lacking impression that you have to know exactly and with extreme precision where you're coming from and where you're going. This bit of Endwalker, although appreciable, didn't seem mastered by the writers. So maybe they should've indeed went with echo visions and not touch time again.

[Skyborne]

Time travel stories tend to feel a little eh to me the more ripple effects there are, because I nitpick too much and frustrate myself. Things like "We have the Blessing of Light because Venat saw us with it, so we have it." feel like circular logic and that bothers me, even if I conceptually understand the idea behind a bootstrap paradox.

Personally, I wasn't bothered too much by Elpis, though I will admit that reading some other posts here did make me think over some missed opportunities. For example, Azem being split between working with their mentor on Team Hydaelyn or their two best friends on Team Zodiark. Maybe there will be a "Tale from the End" or something addressing that, since I think the question was raised to Yoshi-P.

Don't worry, Yoshi has heard you. We'll instead get a Tales of the End that is all about Lightni -- I mean Venat -- that will clean up your misperceptions of her. Please please please don't think of her as being bad or doing bad things!

Elpis msq part and the quests were very pleasant to me, but it is hard not to have a second look at them and think the whole time travel might have been a mistake altogether. Most of the inconsistencies stem from things happening in Elpis and the time travel concept itself. Closed loops especially, are seldom enjoyable in stories. When using time travel there are so many variables to control in order to make sure it won't leave a lacking impression that you have to know exactly and with extreme precision where you're coming from and where you're going. This bit of Endwalker, although appreciable, didn't seem mastered by the writers. So maybe they should've indeed went with echo visions and not touch time again.

I have seen people gush over the time loop because it's 'very Final Fantasy' and 'nostalgic'. As far as I know the only games featuring them are FF1 and FF8. Correct me if I'm wrong since I didn't play 1 (I know, I know, fake fan), but wasn't it about breaking the loop and freeing the people from Chaos?

[AnaviAnael]

Man, I sure do love it when they decide to "subvert expectations!" It always has an interesting result.

I remember back when they subverted all of our expectations so much back in 2019 when they surprised the anime-loving playerbase of FFXIV with Hrothgar instead of the male Viera people were expecting and the JP fanfest crowd proceeded to actually boo the trailer. Similarly, they strongly teased the moon only for us to get no more than a half-hour with Zodiark who people have wanted to see since forever and instead made it into a Looney Toons cartoon with the loporrits.

Can we pretty please return to the Heavensward era back when twists actually paid off in the end and characters were actually believable? Or is Heavensward too simple of a story? Because fighting dragons sure sounds a lot more appealing than another war of morals right about now.

Star Wars subverted expectations by killing Snoak in The Rise of Skywalker. Fans hated it.
Game of Thrones subverted expectations by having Arya kill the Night King instead of Jon Snow. Fans hated it.
FFXIV did what was mentioned above.

Are we noticing a pattern?