What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rulakir]

The most boring thing they could've done would be to make Zodiark or Hydaelyn the big bad, which they didn't.

Except Hydaelyn is still the antagonist to the Ancients, even moreso now given what we learned in EW. I didn't clarify this enough in my initial response as to why I felt like the narrative was gaslighting me. Her actions align more with the villains, in fact she shares numerous similarities to Hermes, but the storyline treats her as the opposite. Even saying she's the heroine of the WoL's tale is being generous since our reality is a direct result of the decisions she made, choices which led to the deaths of billions and wasn't guaranteed to save anyone.

Again, it wasn't a gamble when you know the outcome.

This is a problem because it means she knowingly sundered additional reflections for the purpose of serving as fodder to the Ascians who would rejoin them. So, if they were morally reprehensible, then so is Venat if she were purposefully trying to recreate the events that would lead to the WoL.

Should you choose not to believe that, then we have the Crystal Exarch's timeline, which Veloran in the lore forums noted, is the antithesis of the messaging of EW. They refused to accept their fate after the 8th Umbral Calamity (which was tame compared to the Final Days), labored for 200 years to undo it, and sent G'raha back in time under the belief that in doing so they would all cease to exist. His timeline is the complete failure of everything Venat sought to achieve to the extent that the 'superior' sundered, as we're led to believe, ended up being no different than their unsundered ancestors when push came to shove.

[Imperius_Relampago]

Hm, where did she know that from? Zodiark was what was preventing a repeat.

From our PC. They told Venat and co an entire history of FFXIV from when we arrived to Eorzea to the moment we arrived in Elpis. We were told by the Ascians that Hydaelyn Sundered the world and Zodiark. She has a second hand account of everything that would happen after she Sundered the world. On the bridge, she asked us; "In the future is the world still beautiful?" (All our options are a yes, with the last option being that we find the Unsundered World more beautiful). When we give her our answer (I chose option 1), she says she "could hear the glimmer in our eyes, and the adoration in our voice" and then she wished to know of our adventures while we waited. She even said, and I quote; "By learning about the future world, I may gain insight into future me's plans". We then told her about our adventures. Every battle, every dungeon, every sidequest, every delight. She already knew about all the MSQ stuff from when we told her, Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus about the events leading up to Endwalker, with Emet going off in a huff at the man he becomes. She finally asked; "You, who are our future... Tell me this and tell me true. Has your journey been good? Has it been worthwhile?" before being interrupted by the archivist (Go to The Unending Journey and view the "Witness to the Spectacle" cutscene). Our very presence in the past showed Hydaelyn that Sundering the world and Zodiark would leave Etherys at peace for a time, and that choosing us, the PC, would protect the world from the threats we described when we recounted our tales to her.

It wasn't a gamble. She didn't gamble on mankind maybe living through the Sundering. After you tell her your tales of adventure, she states; "Yours is a hard and unforgiving world. Yet in spite of this, your brethren hold fast to their virtue. To know that the light of mankind's potential still shines, even in that faraway place... It gives me heart". She knew the world would be fine up until the Final Days began again. She evens says that so long as her people need help, she couldn't return to the star. When we fought Hydaelyn, we were fighting to show her that we had the strength to overcome despair. If we failed, we were to flee Etherys. If we succeeded, Hydaelyn/Venat would return to the star, as she knew that her people were finally safe in our hands. That was Hydaelyn's/Venat's final trial; To showcase our strength and resolve to protect Etherys, to ensure her people would remain safe in our care.

[Lauront]

From our PC. They told Venat and co an entire history of FFXIV from when we arrived to Eorzea to the moment we arrived in Elpis. We were told by the Ascians that Hydaelyn Sundered the world and Zodiark. She has a second hand account of everything that would happen after she Sundered the world. On the bridge, she asked us; "In the future is the world still beautiful?" (All our options are a yes, with the last option being that we find the Unsundered World more beautiful). When we give her our answer (I chose option 1), she says she "could hear the glimmer in our eyes, and the adoration in our voice" and then she wished to know of our adventures while we waited. She even said, and I quote; "By learning about the future world, I may gain insight into future me's plans". We then told her about our adventures. Every battle, every dungeon, every sidequest, every delight. She already knew about all the MSQ stuff from when we told her, Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus about the events leading up to Endwalker, with Emet going off in a huff at the man he becomes. She finally asked; "You, who are our future... Tell me this and tell me true. Has your journey been good? Has it been worthwhile?" before being interrupted by the archivist (Go to The Unending Journey and view the "Witness to the Spectacle" cutscene). Our very presence in the past showed Hydaelyn that Sundering the world and Zodiark would leave Etherys at peace for a time, and that choosing us, the PC, would protect the world from the threats we described when we recounted our tales to her.

Okay, I am going to ask again. Where is it specifically stated that the Sundering bought them time against the Final Days, as opposed to Zodiark remaining in place as a shield? Her own henchman, the Watcher, specifically states that her summoners left Zodiark in place rather than unmaking him because of that (although bizarrely they opposed his very creation according to the same dialogue...)

It wasn't a gamble. She didn't gamble on mankind maybe living through the Sundering. After you tell her your tales of adventure, she states; "Yours is a hard and unforgiving world. Yet in spite of this, your brethren hold fast to their virtue. To know that the light of mankind's potential still shines, even in that faraway place... It gives me heart". She knew the world would be fine up until the Final Days began again. She evens says that so long as her people need help, she couldn't return to the star. When we fought Hydaelyn, we were fighting to show her that we had the strength to overcome despair. If we failed, we were to flee Etherys. If we succeeded, Hydaelyn/Venat would return to the star, as she knew that her people were finally safe in our hands. That was Hydaelyn's/Venat's final trial; To showcase our strength and resolve to protect Etherys, to ensure her people would remain safe in our care.

Yes, I am familiar with the dialogue. The fact that she is deciding it through a trial is a gamble in and of itself.

[Imperius_Relampago]

I think the other problem people have, along with all of the other ones that have been stated in this thread in regards to the time stuff, is that they use two different types of time travel over the course of only two expansions(Graha and Elpis). It's like they only introduced it because they couldnt come up with any other way to make the plot. They had to use two different instances of time travel to try and make it work so it just makes things unnecessarily convoluted.

I personally wasn't a fan of ShBs time travel concept. It made no sense whatsoever, and made no effort into explaining it. It is clearly meant to use the Black Hole Theory along with the World Line Theory. The Black Hole theory for how they were able to travel back in time and across shards, and the World Line theory, for how Graha was going to change the past. Essentially, if I were to use FFXIV terms, the Black Hole theory posits that by compressing the data of the brain (2.5 petabytes) and body, via Aetheric manipulation, to a size sendable by the Crystal Tower, along with Graha's link to said tower, then both the Crystal Tower and Graha would be able to traverse time via the Life Stream with no potential for being stuck (Again, barebones'd this theory while using FFXIV terms as opposed to real terms used IRL). The World Line theory, however, posits that there is only one World at any given point. When a new World Line is realized, the previous World Line fades back into nothing but potential and the new one reconstructs in its place. So Graha was from World Line A, but he travelled to World Line B's past through the use of the Black Hole theory. He changed the outcomes, and as a result, World Line A faded into nothing but potential, and Worldline B became World Line A. Endwalker's version of time travel is a lot more simpler in that it is based off of causality.

[EmpyreanHelios]

So we're suppose to work like a hivemind and like/hate the same things? I think not. This is not some universal agreement on bad story writing. You guys are not correct on all accounts, all I see are opinions, which is fine. You and a few others don't like the story, which is also fine.

The most boring thing they could've done would be to make Zodiark or Hydaelyn the big bad, which they didn't.

That’s not what I said so I’m not sure why you would think that. We don’t all agree on the same things and that’s why this discussion exists. We all deserve to give and make our opinions known.

The thing is whenever I see someone say “I don’t like x about the MSQ,” someone appears with personal attacks or snarky comments. We should move away from that as a community.

I was generally very happy with every expansion other than this one and I’ve made that known with my previous comments.

[Imperius_Relampago]

This is a problem because it means she knowingly sundered additional reflections for the purpose of serving as fodder to the Ascians who would rejoin them. So, if they were morally reprehensible, then so is Venat if she were purposefully trying to recreate the events that would lead to the WoL.

That is correct, however Venat and the Ascians had one major difference. The Ascians saw Humanity as inferior shells of what they once were, and saw us a gnats who should be stamped out. Venat truly loved Humanity, and was in pain as she watched Humanity suffer through the rejoinings. Rewatch "Cutscene #2 of the "Thou Must Live, Die and Know" quest cutscene, and pay attention to the songs lyrics as they spoken, as well as the visuals in the cutscene. Venat/Hydaelyn became more bloody, damaged and tired as time went one. This represented her watching Humanity suffer as she walked past them, ignoring their cries for help. The song playing in the background, "Answers" is a combination of Ancients, Humanity and Hydaelyn singing. The deep male voices are the Ancients during the Final Days, as they despaired and desperately hoped for Zodiark to save them, constantly calling out to the star asking "Why must we suffer?", with Hydaelyn responding "walk free". Then it cuts to Humanity being beaten with every Rejoining, echoing the cries of the ancients, but with a female voice "Why must we suffer so?", along with "Now open your eyes now that our plight is repeated", "Still deaf to our cries", and all of Hydaelyn's responses are apologetic. Near the end of the song, the Ancients and Humanity sing together (symbolising the WoL carrying the Ancients legacy, as well as the hope of Humanity), with Hydaelyn giving her famous "Hear, Feel, Think" lines inbetween them.

[Lauront]

The Ascians were mankind. Their entire beef with her is her fragmenting their star, and their people, into beings closer to familiars in their eyes, cutting their lifespan and diminishing many traits besides, with no real explanation; all of which they seek to undo. She had the knowledge of why she thought what she was doing was right. It's easy for her to play loving mother goddess when she knows all this and they don't, and she sits back munching on the pop corn - salt-flavoured as it might be through tears, if not a bit soggy - and when she's responsible for sundered mankind's state in the first place. Oh she shed a few tears for them. Great consolation prize.

[Tyjacon]

• The mighty Zodiark, which has been build up as this mighty(evil) entity over several expansions, turns out to be nothing but filler trash for the first Endwalker trial
• The true cause of the Final Days is a pet-project from an ancient which goes mad after observing countless dead world and possibly causing the death of several world by projecting negative emotions unto them, and is thus dead-set on bringing despair to every world, upon which said ancient goes mad and is now letting her run her course to test humanity if they can withstand/fight despair
• Venat, who hasn't had her memory wiped + still remembers you from being in Elpis, quite apparently doesn't lift a finger to learn about Dynamis herself or to mobilize the other ancients to end Meteion then and there, and instead chooses to turn herself into Hydaelyn, sunder the world and the inhabitants, thereby forcing them to live with and face despair and gambling that their resilience against despair might be enough to face Meteion one day

Really?
This is the best SQ could do in terms of story after ShB?

I think you missed the mark on the plot, in my opinion.

• I don't remember Hydaelyn ever saying Zodiark was evil. She talked about the darkness but didn't imply it was Zodiark, that was an assumption on our part, and probably encouraged by the devs If Hydaelyn was good then Zodiark had to be evil.
  I think the darkness she was referring to was the evil tendencies in man that the ascians exploited to their own ends. Remember the whole Hydaelyn / Zodiark antagonism was being narrated by the ascians, who had their own agenda, and none of us were around then to give it a different perspective.
  
• The true cause of the final days was the result of opening pandora's box and not being able to close it. Dynamis was a force that the ascian's didn't, being so aether dense, and couldn't understand. I wouldn't call Hermes 'mad' per say but curious as to what other civilizations considered the meaning of life. In his career as the overseer of Elpis he has seen countless species invented and destroyed without any concern for the destruction of a lifeform. Where is the meaning in life if it can be created and destroyed at a whim?
  Rather than focusing on the individual worlds being or having been destroyed I think the
  point was that if all life is destined to become extinct, then what is the point of living?
  Which leads to despair and in the ascian's utopic world this is a foreign concept to them.
  And it's not that he letting her run her course, he opened pandora's box and can't get it closed.
  
• As to Hydaelyn "not lifting a finger" to learn about dynamis or trying to stop it, you have to remember that the ascians couldn't interact with it being so aether dense. (It's like dark matter. We know it has to exist for our universe to be, but we know nothing about it, nor can we interact with it.) Only by sundering the world into shards and making each world less aether dense are we able to interact with dynamis directly. And then hydalyn had to wait until someone (us) was strong enough to have the ability to defeat the cause. So there was nothing she could directly do to directly stop the final days from happening.
  Even in the ascian's time they didn't know what caused the final days, they just summoned zodiark to stop it.

At least that is my take on the subject looking at the big picture rather than the sum of the pieces.

[Lauront]

It was one of their own who understood it, so how does it follow that they couldn't? Knowledge of it is elusive (seemingly even across the stars Meteion encountered), but the only reason it is lost is due to Kairos and Venat keeping it all a secret. Even the sundered could not understand it until the events in Elpis help confirm some theories on the matter, i.e. knowledge derived from an ancient.

As to manipulating it, they could not easily do so by default, but they had 1) familiars they could devise to do so, like Meteion, if something similar was devised without the design flaws (and it's an open question whether a prayer-filled construct like a primal could do it, as Elidibus did seem to surge with power due to prayer when transformed into the WoL primal form) and 2) areas like Ktisis Hyperboreia, which had aetheric suppression fields that could potentially allow for the the power be honed. Amongst other workarounds they may have devised, given the chance. Hell, they could even sunder a few of their own, since it only took 8 or so to ultimately defeat Endsinger in spite of her swallowing several worlds' worth of despair... plenty of options, but since they were never given a chance due to the time travel mess being used to explain it all and act as a constraint, Venat did not share any of it, and all that was never considered. Zodiark, even sundered, could act as a shield for at least the past 12k years, if not more, so they had the time to figure out a plan - many plans, even.

On Zodiark and how she presented him and his minions (a minion being someone carrying out the will of their master), she is referring to them as evil and she is referring to them as darkness. See e.g. here, and here she is referring to Zodiark as the darkness. It is not difficult to see that there is indeed an insinuation being formed here that he was evil - according to her phony recollection of events, anyway.

[Kozh]

Snip...

Are you for real?

Just like you said yourself, she doesn't know anything after we returned from the past. Her test is part of the gamble itself, which y'sthola said herself. The "lottery number" here is not about how the WoL manage to find out about meteion, but about if we manage to beat meteion and save the universe. Any events leading to our final fight (after hydaelyn test) and the fight itself IS the gamble. That's why she prepared escape plan.

She doesn't even know about ultima Thule aside from its coordinate. If not for meteion attacking us first and causing thancred to turn into soul, we probably died the first step at ultima thule since it's inhospitable.