What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Atreides]

I do think that we have to show some discontent so that the writers and devs knows not to repeat certain events/aspects in the future.

In SB, I was really tired of Zenos slow walking at you with a sword every instance fight and I guess no one took an issue with that because immediately next expansion we had Zenos 2.0 Ranjit slow walking at you with Kung-fu and a dragon.

So we're suppose to work like a hivemind and like/hate the same things? I think not. This is not some universal agreement on bad story writing. You guys are not correct on all accounts, all I see are opinions, which is fine. You and a few others don't like the story, which is also fine.

The most boring thing they could've done would be to make Zodiark or Hydaelyn the big bad, which they didn't.

[Imperius_Relampago]

Her action is definitely a gamble. Something even y'sthola said it was. She met one strong sundered person, then decided to bet the future of humanity to that person plus seven other people. She is lucky EW is so deep in shounen anime trope that the protagonists can defeat literall endbringer, who accumulated despair for 12k years across the stars, via friendship power.

I can't believe I like tales of arise ending better than EW.

Again, it wasn't a gamble when you know the outcome. She knew Sundering the world would put a temporary stop to the Final Days. She heard our tales of stopping numerous world-destroying threats, she heard of us defeating Emet-Selch, who bare in mind is considered the most gifted in Aetheric manipulation out of all Ancients, as stated by Hythlodaeus, and knew how long it'd be until the Final Days returned. We literally gave her, Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus a detailed history of FFXIV and our accomplishments. She knew that choosing us to be Her Champion would result in said events playing out.

What she didn't know is what would happen when we returned from the past, and even then she put a plan in place in the event we failed. She didn't know if we would be able to defeat Meteion, as her knowledge of the future ended when we returned to the present, so she tested us. If we failed, we were to flee Etherys. If we passed, then we know what happens.

Think of it like this;

A future version of you arrives infront of you. You see they are extremely wealthy, and they tell you that they won the lottery and created a scientific research company, who then discovered time travel. They then give you the winning lottery numbers and return to the future. You use those numbers and win the lottery and you end up creating a company based on scientific research. One of the researchers discovers time travel and you become the first person to use it. You arrive in the past infront of a younger version of yourself and tell them you won the lottery and created a company etc. then return to the present. From the moment you returned to the present, you have absolutely no knowledge on what to do next, as the future version of you only told you up to the point of the researcher discovering time travel, and the rest of what happened you just lived through it. Your knowledge of the future is gone, and so you must figure something out. That is what Hydaelyn was like.

Another thing; Zodiark was built up for years, yes, however the playerbase had been speculating on what would happen after we defeated him for years. The in-game rumours, and in-game information only spoke of him at full power. The Zodiark we killed was severely crippled, both due to his "Heart" being killed and also being starved of sacrifices since the Sundering. Also, everyone seems to be forgetting that Zodiark's death was the literal cause of the Final Days, aka the end of the world in our time. Zodiark was a huge threat that we had to stomp out, and because we stomped him out, for the first time we experience the consequences of our actions. Every time we defeated a Primal or a "big bad", the world would return to what it was like pre-expansion, rinse and repeat. This time, however, defeating the Primal/"big bad" resulted in an even more catastrophic situation playing out; The Final Days. Endwalker is essentially a normal expansion up until the point where we defeat the "big bad" Zodiark, but are then forced into an extreme case of damage control due to our actions, and then being forced to confront an ancient enemy who laid in wait for literal eons amassing power for the sole purpose of wiping us out..

[ApolloGenX]

Think of it like this;

A future version of you arrives infront of you. You see they are extremely wealthy, and they tell you that they won the lottery and created a scientific research company, who then discovered time travel. They then give you the winning lottery numbers and return to the future. You use those numbers and win the lottery and you end up creating a company based on scientific research. One of the researchers discovers time travel and you become the first person to use it. You arrive in the past infront of a younger version of yourself and tell them you won the lottery and created a company etc. then return to the present. From the moment you returned to the present, you have absolutely no knowledge on what to do next, as the future version of you only told you up to the point of the researcher discovering time travel, and the rest of what happened you just lived through it. Your knowledge of the future is gone, and so you must figure something out. That is what Hydaelyn was like.

That's fine- but it's cheesy. It's what it is because it's what we said it would be.

That kind of removes the agency from all the characters and puts everything on a deterministic path. If that is what they wanted to do (they DID say we couldn't change the future) then why did we interact with the Ancients at all? It should have kept us invisible to them and we should have just passively learned what happened. Honestly, that is kind of what I expected to happen. The fact that they made our presence there a crucial part of the way things turned out means that we created this new future - ok... but if that is the case, why did the future ignore so much of the REST of what happened in the past?

It felt like if you watched Back to the Future and he got back to the present and nothing had changed.... because they had written the story of the present first and then no matter what happened in the past, they were stuck in a corner. That's the problem with time travel I guess.

[Lauront]

I think we just haven't had a chance to see a lot of beings that are associated with Darkness. Maybe they all look like that and it's only our own in real life perceptions coming into play. To the people on the First, it's the angelic beings who are the true demonic personas.

In all honesty, I thought Zodiark's form was fine. They used SHB to hammer the point that simply looking like an angel doesn't imply one is benevolent, with Innocence as an extreme of this. Plus, some of the sin eaters and lightwardens themselves looked rather demonic. Zodiark by contrast has the large horns and menacing appearance, but he is a primal of salvation and also an Atlas like figure, protecting the star from corruption. I suspect Zodiark's appearance is simply a consequence of him being a primal of darkness, although given that the statues of him predate his summoning, it may have some mythological significance to the ancients as well. As in, he bears the guise of some manner of protector deity. Horned gods exist as a thing separately to demons.

Where it grated on my nerves was constantly Hydaelyn using the terms light and dark as interchangeable with good and evil (or associated concepts, like hope and despair), when they spent an entire expansion unravelling this association. It just sits weirdly. The fixation with light at this point is just dull to me.

Again, it wasn't a gamble when you know the outcome. She knew Sundering the world would put a temporary stop to the Final Days.

Hm, where did she know that from? Zodiark was what was preventing a repeat.

She heard our tales of stopping numerous world-destroying threats, she heard of us defeating Emet-Selch, who bare in mind is considered the most gifted in Aetheric manipulation out of all Ancients

Yes, coupled with seven other summoned champions, the Scions and a ton of light which the story attributed the MC being able to control due to bearing the Blessing of Light and which took a further soul shard rejoining to avoid bursting at the seams. The sundering aetherically reduced life 9 times in excess of the total amount of soul shards the WoL had rejoined. All that, plus the aid of the scions to eventually put a hole through him. And again, this is one singular individual in possession of a particularly potent ancient soul, with a lot of plot contrivances enabling said outcome. Rather exceptional compared to other sundered beings.

What she didn't know is what would happen when we returned from the past, and even then she put a plan in place in the event we failed.

An utterly futile one, because what does fleeing the star accomplish against a foe like Meteion?

She didn't know if we would be able to defeat Meteion, as her knowledge of the future ended when we returned to the present, so she tested us. If we failed, we were to flee Etherys. If we passed, then we know what happens.

This part right here is why people refer to it as a gamble, i.e. sundering the world to commit to the original timeline on the basis of an outcome she'd still need to test.

[Shiro--Tsubasa]

We never see Zodiark at the peak of his power. We fight Zodiark at his strongest through the Elidibus fight, the remains of Zodiark are just that an empty husk of a once powerful being with not even half of its strength left.

the final boss was about his final question. Is humanity worthy of existing? and everything the Metea was shown across the stars is no we weren't. (What we fight ISNT Metelion it was the shared consciousness of her sisters that we fight, Meteion was on our side after we freed her from the shared consciousness by reminding her of what makes living important)

Vanat's actions after we go to the future is a challenge to that very question. (i suggest reading the lyrics on Answers with this context) By living and desiring to keep on living knowing there is an end we contradict everything the Metea learned in their travels across the stars. Vanat can't learn how to control dynamis because she is a large mass of aether and aether drowns out dynamis. The only person who had a clue to understanding dynamis wiped their mind and replaced with traumatizing memories. The only way she could fight back is by having everything happen as she was told by our character so that we would be ready to confront the final days. If Vanat had change things, she would risk us not being ready to confront Endsinger when she returns. It is our journey from ARR to Endwalker that prepares us to face Endsinger and without that journey we wouldn't stand a chance.

[Imperius_Relampago]

That kind of removes the agency from all the characters and puts everything on a deterministic path.

I mean, the Echo literally lets you see the attacks of opponents before they happen. Also, every time you fail a duty, it is canonical that it was the Echo granting you a vision of what would happen if you attempted it at your current strength/mindset. The whole "empowered by the Echo" mechanic is described as you having learned from the vision and using that knowledge to defeat your opponent. So we already have some manner of precognition.

If that is what they wanted to do (they DID say we couldn't change the future) then why did we interact with the Ancients at all? It should have kept us invisible to them and we should have just passively learned what happened

Back to the Future used a different set of Time Travel rules. There are many rules and paradoxes to time travel, but the one FFXIV uses in Endwalker is the Predestination Paradox, aka Causal Loop/Closed Time Loop. In layman's terms, it means this: The time traveller is in the past, which means they were in the past before. Therefore, their presence is vital to the future, and they do something that causes the future to occur in the same way that their knowledge of the future has already happened. Prior to going to the Unsundered World, us arriving in Elpis already happened, as stated by Elidibus. He had memories of seeing us in Elpis in the Unsundered World. This means that in our time, we had already been in Elpis all those years ago. Our presence in the past and our actions is what caused Meteion to become the Endsinger. If we didn't tell Venat and co. about the Final Days etc, then Emet-Selch wouldn't have pushed so hard to take Meteion into the Convocations custody and away from Hermes, and as such Hermes wouldn't have pushed back so hard. Hermes simply wanted to hear Meteion's report, but Emet-Selch was trying to prevent it. If Hermes had heard the full report, chances are he wouldn't have done the stuff he did out of desperation.

The fact that they made our presence there a crucial part of the way things turned out means that we created this new future

It's not a new future. The past occurred in our past. We have always went to Elpis to discover what was causing the Final Days. Our travel to the past is what inevitably causes the Final Days in the first place. Hence, closed loop. It's like learning that you were going to be hit by a car that day, so you stay at home, and then a car crashes into your house and hits you. If you weren't at home, you wouldn't have been hit by the car. It's simple causality; You were influenced by the knowledge that you were going to be hit by a car that day and as such stayed at home, which in turn contributes to the car hitting you; The cause is partly responsible for the effect, and the effect is partly dependent on the cause.

[Jettinson]

I do think that we have to show some discontent so that the writers and devs knows not to repeat certain events/aspects in the future.

In SB, I was really tired of Zenos slow walking at you with a sword every instance fight and I guess no one took an issue with that because immediately next expansion we had Zenos 2.0 Ranjit slow walking at you with Kung-fu and a dragon.

The writing was already set and as myself I joined during 5.2 so nothing else would have changed.

I can give my views on the writing overall etc but what's done is done plus I loved all expansions, it was a fantastic journey for me, despite having its flaws(which I never expected the game to be perfect to begin with, I didn't even expected to play this much).

I just wanted to chime in with Zodiark talk that honestly they did better than having Z and Hydaelyn as big bad.

[ApolloGenX]

It's not a new future. The past occurred in our past. We have always went to Elpis to discover what was causing the Final Days. Our travel to the past is what inevitably causes the Final Days in the first place. Hence, closed loop. It's like learning that you were going to be hit by a car that day, so you stay at home, and then a car crashes into your house and hits you. If you weren't at home, you wouldn't have been hit by the car. It's simple causality; You were influenced by the knowledge that you were going to be hit by a car that day and as such stayed at home, which in turn contributes to the car hitting you; The cause is partly responsible for the effect, and the effect is partly dependent on the cause.

You are right, I shouldn't have said "new" future... in fact, according to this story- this entire arc had already happened before players even started playing...because back in the past we said it would.

That still removes all agency from the characters and essentially means that we have been in a predetermined play that started I don't know over a thousand years ago. I don't love that. I especially don't love that it is being passed off as some kind of "You helped set this is motion". No we didn't. If we did, then all the rest of the circumstances they ignored would have been factored into the story, but they weren't. That's why I think we should have been passive learners in the past... we just left behind way too much evidence/opportunity for things to have gone differently to be shoehorned into the story the writers wrote. It was their story, not ours.

It's fine to say we are stuck on this course of history- I think it's a cheap trick to try to lay that at the feet of players and say "You were responsible for how we got here... because we said so". No, we weren't. You wrote a history and then stuck us into it, ignored the actual impact we had and said "Ta-da! Now you are responsible".

[KizuyaKatogami]

snip

I think the other problem people have, along with all of the other ones that have been stated in this thread in regards to the time stuff, is that they use two different types of time travel over the course of only two expansions(Graha and Elpis). It's like they only introduced it because they couldnt come up with any other way to make the plot. They had to use two different instances of time travel to try and make it work so it just makes things unnecessarily convoluted.

[Lauront]

You are right, I shouldn't have said "new" future... in fact, according to this story- this entire arc had already happened before players even started playing...because back in the past we said it would.

That still removes all agency from the characters and essentially means that we have been in a predetermined play that started I don't know over a thousand years ago. I don't love that. I especially don't love that it is being passed off as some kind of "You helped set this is motion". No we didn't. If we did, then all the rest of the circumstances they ignored would have been factored into the story, but they weren't. That's why I think we should have been passive learners in the past... we just left behind way too much evidence/opportunity for things to have gone differently to be shoehorned into the story the writers wrote. It was their story, not ours.

It's fine to say we are stuck on this course of history- I think it's a cheap trick to try to lay that at the feet of players and say "You were responsible for how we got here... because we said so". No, we weren't. You wrote a history and then stuck us into it, ignored the actual impact we had and said "Ta-da! Now you are responsible".

Heavily agree with this. It's what I find so entirely dissatisfactory with explanations like the one given. Plus they utilised time travel just an expansion prior, that time resulting in the formation of a branching world.