What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[dapperfaffer]

You guys need to be consistent. Either Azems gender and the WoLs gender are linked for the burden of evidentiary proof that the WoL is the sundered soul of Azem, or its not. Also, heres an updoot.

[TaleraRistain]

You guys need to be consistent. Either Azems gender and the WoLs gender are linked for the burden of evidentiary proof that the WoL is the sundered soul of Azem, or its not. Also, heres an updoot.

We know the Warrior of Light is the sundered soul of Azem. We've had multiple people who can see souls now recognize ours as reminding them of that being. Each player's story follows the same beats, with the difference in gender being irrelevant. It's just like how we are the one and only Warrior of Light in our own story, and every other player is the Warrior of Light in their story.

[dapperfaffer]

We know the Warrior of Light is the sundered soul of Azem. We've had multiple people who can see souls now recognize ours as reminding them of that being. Each player's story follows the same beats, with the difference in gender being irrelevant. It's just like how we are the one and only Warrior of Light in our own story, and every other player is the Warrior of Light in their story.

I was talking about you Talera. It seems relevant enough for you.

Is it? Do male characters get "she" as well? All other mentions of Azem are he/she because it reflects your character.

And found the answer to my own question. It changes to "he" on a male character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOx2n6DRrEw

You would only bring up the gender link if you thought it was relevant to contradict my statement that it was clear that Azem is female at the time of Pandaemonium events. Never mind that the gender link to PC has nothing to do with what I posted, not even in my mention of it in the gender dichotomy of the WoL and Azem in my post quoting Tareq, but thats the point you focused on. Never mind the literal list of things wrong with my speculation that you could have chosen. You chose, nope Males get a He-he.
So, no, the WoL gender link to Azem isn't irrelevant. Its super important. Since, you know, the WoL is Azem. Its kinda hard to have a female PC with a Male Azem, otherwise there are things one might be able to speculate as it breaks the narrative of the story.

[Sicno]

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not even trying to discuss anything at this point. I can accept that my entirely weak strawman speculation, doesn't work. I have no issue with that. Why you and Kizuya feel the need to attempt to continue to discuss something that you have already shut down, well I can't answer that for you.
As for your post, all I did was answer your question, and basically told you to stop responding to me.

Ok, I actually apologize because in retrospect it did come more harshly than I intended. What I really meant to say was "let's skip it for a moment." Like "I know you're trying hard but stop for a moment, take a deep breath and focus on a simple detail first."

[dapperfaffer]

Ok, I actually apologize because in retrospect it did come more harshly than I intended. What I really meant to say was "let's skip it for a moment." Like "I know you're trying hard but stop for a moment, take a deep breath and focus on a simple detail first."

No you didn't. You meant it exactly as you typed it out.
Now, where you got that I was saying Azem isn't the WoL, or that Elidibus isn't Themis .... well .... that would be something to apologize for.

[KizuyaKatogami]

No you didn't. You meant it exactly as you typed it out.
Now, where you got that I was saying Azem isn't the WoL, or that Elidibus isn't Themis .... well .... that would be something to apologize for.

Tbf, you were essentially “speculating” that Themis could be Azem, when we know that can’t be true as he’s Elidibus and as far as we know no one has ever swapped seats or had 2 positions at once. It’s implied you were saying or possibly didn’t know there that Themis is Elidibus, on top of your speculation also meaning Azem in Elpis time isn’t us, when we know that to be the case. That’s where the confusion stems from. I’m discussing because that’s what these forums are for, discussing, and i personally like to specifically get things out as pure headcanon and non-factual so that there isn’t confusion in other threads using said headcanon as that happens incredibly frequently here, especially in regards to the ancients/venat.

[Rulakir]

It seems in reality a lot of things slipped under their radar, so stop trying to claim that because neither Emet nor Hythlodaeus knew anything about dynamis nor entelechies then that means nobody else in the entire star had knowledge about it besides Hermes. It's entirely possible there were other researchers who could have been competent enough or could have made entirely new discoveries to solve the Final Days if they had known dynamis was at the core of it.

Just going to add this to support your argument (and attempt to get this thread back on topic :P):

Yes, he had an intention of eventually submitting her, and of course a member of the Bureau would encourage him to do it, that doesn't mean it was a "requirement" for everybody.

I believe it was if the creation was to be released into greater Etheirys. Hermes subverted that by sending the Meteia directly into space from Elpis. I think Hythlodaeus cut him some slack because he was a friend and believed him to be an upstanding guy.

[SpectrePhantasia]

It's kind of interesting that Ancients other than Hermes didn't really seem to care about space and the wider universe at all. Of course I understand that their entire philosophy is that the star and betterment of it comes first and foremost, but the idea that everything beyond Etheirys would be so neglected to the point where an energy source that compromises most of the universe is some kind of fringe topic of study is strange. I don't know if I can attribute it to a writing quirk or if there is a sensible reason for a scholarly society like the Ancients to know about it, yet willingly choose to not research it further, when it doubtlessly could have had use in understanding the nature of their world, and thus, have a better idea of how to nurture the star even more. The fact that all of what transpired in Endwalker occurred due to the acts of a single Ancient leads me to wonder what they could have accomplished if they had a group dedicated to similar pursuits.

[Teraq]

I am... like... incredibly confused by what's been going on here.

I remember seeing a white-hot Pandaemonium take on Reddit that Erichthonios would go on to become our Lahabrea. And... I... just... nah fam, for multiple reasons. I mean, what we know so far about Pandaemonium seems pretty clear to me, but I will concede we do not know exactly when it takes place. It might be before Themis actually became Elidibus. But the Azem mentioned in the quest line is very much supposed to be us, and I don't think it's ever been ambiguous?...

It's kind of interesting that Ancients other than Hermes didn't really seem to care about space and the wider universe at all. Of course I understand that their entire philosophy is that the star and betterment of it comes first and foremost, but the idea that everything beyond Etheirys would be so neglected to the point where an energy source that compromises most of the universe is some kind of fringe topic of study is strange. I don't know if I can attribute it to a writing quirk or if there is a sensible reason for a scholarly society like the Ancients to know about it, yet willingly choose to not research it further, when it doubtlessly could have had use in understanding the nature of their world, and thus, have a better idea of how to nurture the star even more. The fact that all of what transpired in Endwalker occurred due to the acts of a single Ancient leads me to wonder what they could have accomplished if they had a group dedicated to similar pursuits.

Yeah I think the topic of Ancients and space is weird too. Like, we have Venat coming up with the star trekking bunnies and her Moon being a literal functional spaceship. Given that they're her creations, can we infer that they're based off her own knowledge of how space travel works (and I assume she wouldn't be the only one with that knowledge – much like the Hermes-Dynamis point, I can hardly believe an entire civilisation of immortal academics wouldn't share scientific knowledge with each other, which is one of the reasons why "Hermes had to become Fandaniel!" just bothers me)? Or did she create them with the intent "hey, research space travel for me then build an ark for humanity", which they then did? In either case the end result is the same: logically, space shouldn't be this completely unknown thing for Ancients. But I guess they just willingly chose not to research it much?...

Speaking of, I had long headcanoned (oh no not another headcanon in this thread!) that the Seat of Nabriales had to do with astrophysics, what with his timey-wimey shenanigans and meteor rain. But Endwalker absolutely did not help out there.

[dapperfaffer]

Tbf, you were essentially “speculating” that Themis could be Azem, when we know that can’t be true as he’s Elidibus and as far as we know no one has ever swapped seats or had 2 positions at once. It’s implied you were saying or possibly didn’t know there that Themis is Elidibus, on top of your speculation also meaning Azem in Elpis time isn’t us, when we know that to be the case. That’s where the confusion stems from. I’m discussing because that’s what these forums are for, discussing, and i personally like to specifically get things out as pure headcanon and non-factual so that there isn’t confusion in other threads using said headcanon as that happens incredibly frequently here, especially in regards to the ancients/venat.

fine, Kizuya.
No, you weren't interested in discussing anything. Your initial response was

Themis is Elidibus not Azem lol

My reply was speculation, to Teraqs post which was also speculation. No one was directly stating anything, it was merely the possibilities. So, there is no confusion. You're trying to have a discussion about something that no one said, about things no one was discussing.