What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Teraq]

I've heard this patch is so full to the brim with engaging content, 11 days on, that some big name content creator made a video on patch 6.3's most pressing subject: aveyond's comeback forum thread. Apparently our lovely thread has been mentioned in passing, and you know me: every publicity is good publicity!

So here's me shilling our safe Discord for shamelessly defecating on Endwalker's Quite Lackluster Story and our beloved Mommy who did everything right, away from all the… ah, most honored lore masters, who take to new posters venturing into their lair like Hermes's murderwolves to innocent okyupetes:

https://discord.gg/j2MJrdtn

Thank you for writing this!

Yes! That was my experience of it. Was so hyped to play EW, looked forward to it for ages since FFXIV had become where I went to try to mend my brain, a place to relax, be social, think and be able to get away from thinking when needed, and be a bit happier. Endwalker hit me HARD and I spiralled badly back into a depression I was already struggling to get out of.

The question "Is life worth it?" being answered with "if you're the right type of person, with only acceptable emotions (absolutely NO sadness or fear!), in with the right crowd, in the right time and place. If not, then no, you're just not strong enough or what we consider worthy". Damn!

Not the message they wanted to send, but that's how it was received by me during play through. Add to it the gaslighting ("they deserved it", "there was no other way", "suffering is beautiful", "it hurt mommy more. Think of her pain!" etc.) and I spent literally months trying to crawl back out from under the dark storm cloud in my head.

I know that's not what the writers intended, EW was meant to be uplifting (others seemed to feel it was?), but for me, it was the direct opposite.

I want to echo this as well, because for all the people who say Endwalker helped them out of their depression or existential angst – great! –, I need to talk about how playing Endwalker actively made my own clinical depression worse in December 2021.

Coming off from all the emotions Shadowbringers made me feel, the 5.3-5.4 period was the height of my fandom. While I mildly enjoyed FFXIV before, mostly for its antagonist cast and its politics – quite naturally, coming from the evil and edgy fandom of A Song Of Ice And Fire ("NOOOOOO YOU CANT WANT STAKES AND CONSEQUENCES FOR PROTAGONISTS THIS ISNT GAME OF THRONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!") – it was 5.0 that made me finally care more than my basal level of enjoyment, because even though it had just torpedoed one half of the antagonist build-up (RIP Varys Varis and your empire), it made up for that by propping up the half I cared about more by giving them a very compelling and touching backstory and motivation.
Then came 5.2 and 5.3, where my favorite character not only finally stepped into the limelight after having played the role of background extension pack hype man for 6 years, but he did so in the very promising context brought forth by 5.0. It propelled FFXIV from "I really enjoy this and am actively looking forward to news" to "it's living rent-free in my brain", replacing my fondness for ASOIAF and dunking on its terrible live-action adaptation (which, surprisingly, the majority ended up agreeing with after season 8! Oh, how I wish this had happened here…) in all my unabashed book snobbery. I even started browsing Twitter (RIP Tumblr) and downloading fanart of this setting and characters I had grown to love: the deeply human tale of the Unsundered Ascians and the fascinating fantasy setting of the Ancient World, with its undercurrent of a different, incredibly powerful humanity having grown past its ugly base instincts that still obviously live within them, as stated by the charitable PATRONIZING Amaurotine (thanks EN loc!) (btw I'm looking forward to a certain forum creature picking up on this and making an unhinged strawman post about it again). The fanbase's engagement with short stories when 'Ere Our Curtain Falls dropped, while a handful of Twitter clowns hilariously despaired over WHY ARE WE GIVING THE GENOCIDAL MANIACS MORE ATTENTION NOOOOO STOP LOVING THEM STOP DRAWING CUTE FAN ART OF ELIDIBUS EMET AND AZEM NOOOOOO, never reached the same fever pitch again. While I was disappointed in how weirdly rushed Elidibus's character development was in 5.3 – it literally feels like something happened with the writing decisions between 5.2 and 5.3, because 5.3 went into a wildly different direction very suddenly – I was now actively looking forward to what was shaping up to be an epic finale that would bring closure to the character, as his Ascian self, his human self, and as Zodiark.
5.4 came out, and the renewed focus on Sundered Ascians just served to hype me up all the more. Sure, the Limsa/Kobold plot happened I guess, but more importantly, it cemented how different the remaining Ascians could be in how they handle their own identity as reincarnations of leaders of sorts of a long-lost world – perhaps with uncomfortable parallels to the WoL themself – and especially in the context of them losing their actual Unsundered leaders. I always was quite adamant on the theory that Elidibus was not dead, just locked inside the Crystal Tower, because otherwise why even bring up the fact that he is the Heart of Zodiark, the acting consciousness of the "dark god" that's been the centerpiece of the antagonists this entire 8-year arc? Considering that 5.2 had finally introduced Hydaelyn's actual human self as well (and that said character ominously shared her name with a morally ambiguous antagonist of a politically-heavy story), it was a foregone conclusion to me that Elidibus/Zodiark would play as much of a major role in the coming finale as Venat/Hydaelyn. We would learn the full truth of their conflict and see them confront each other while doing justice to both sides, and it would involve some of the remaining Sundered Ascians too – some that want to burn it all down, some that want revenge on the Sundered, some that want to work with us to save the planet and prevent Fandaniel from besmirching their people's legacy.

I was hyped and this was gonna be good.

Then the first teaser for Endwalker came out. I don't know if you've noticed, but you've just watched an Ascian enjoyer write out a wall of text about her experience of Shadowbringers and her expectations for Endwalker while barely even mentioning Emet-Selch by name. Look, it isn't my fault, I like the guy and all. But he died in 5.0, and then he properly died in 5.3, with the accompanying short story calling the latter his last act. Beside the eventuality of him appearing in flashbacks, I was pretty over Emet-Selch. He's had his story, now it's time to let others get the writers' and the fans' attention.
So yeah, Endwalker info started coming out, and the schism between me and the rest of the fandom started happening. I started turning the valve of my copium tank open.
But hey, it was all making a huge point of The Moon. 5.55 literally ended with that shot of the Moon that made everyone who watched either cringe or shift uncomfortably in their seat with their brow furrowed. There was literally no way Endwalker would not involve Moonman McZodiarkheart in its closure of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark arc with a heavily teased role of the Moon.
The teasers went on and on throughout 2021, and each time I turned to my copium tank.

But look, this isn't all about the abyssal depths of my disappointment in how Endwalker handled my expectations. Yes, it sure sUbVeRtEd mY ExPeCtATiOnS, in that I was expecting a satisfying emotional conclusion to the humanized portrayal of the Ancients in Shadowbringers, and for things that were built up over years to be delivered on properly.

But it's also everything else about it. I expected justice and hope and conciliation between light and dark in Endwalker, and there was literally none to be found. All I found was the most callous of gaslighting and emotional manipulation, dehumanization and dismissal of the setting and characters I loved the most. How am I supposed to take Endwalker in any positive or hopeful way when it is not-so-subtly telling me they were wrong, deserved it and never had any hope? I remember a certain poster of these forums even tried to twist the message of hope and not giving it to despair found in Mitron's Convocation crystal in 5.3 as "evidence of them giving in to despair" – that is how stupidly biased against this very human people people walked away from Endwalker as. No hope indeed (never mind the giant primal of it, I suppose): simply more "they would have sacrificed their entire planet!!!!!" "Zodiark was a blood god who would have kept demanding for more sacrifices!!!!" (as an Elidibus fan, let me just ask here: what are you guys even talking about?? WHAT blood god??? lmao you guys I swear HE'S RIGHT HEREfjqksgfkgfkqsj hahahaha I just hahahaha even Fandaniel says Zodiark is just a construct without a will without his Heart before he jumps in hahahahahaha oh my god) strawmen. Endwalker was meant to be uplifting, yet it barely gave any respect to those I loved at all, which was very much a departure from Shadowbringers. All I got from it was that Hope isn't for everyone. Not if you're the wrong people!

From the moment I finished 6.0 MSQ, I spent weeks with what literally felt a dark cloud inside my brain. I was very thankful I had people who supported me, friends who listened and a life that was otherwise going well at the moment. It felt incredibly silly for my mental state to take such a hit because of a stupid fictional story. What a nerd. Cringe. I got over the worst part of December when my FFXIV friends finally got to completing MSQ and I could unleash my spoiler-laden rants at them – which they agreed with, because my friends are fantastic people with actual taste. I finally had people to commiserate with rather than bottling up how deeply wrong Endwalker felt, because the majority of this Great Community By The Way did not seem to welcome dissenting opinions very much, which only contributed to it becoming more and more of an echo chamber, while Ancient Twitter was, as far as the eye could see, getting super busy gatekeeping depression over their precious plucklypoo scrungly krungly blorbo who lived in a society (talk about cognitive dissonance for so-called Ancient fans), calling anyone who disagreed ableist, and also racist because wow he looks mildly mediterranean I suppose. This very thread here helped me a lot, in fact. Finally, I wasn't insane anymore. There were people who were just as disappointed, letdown, offended by and even depressed over the sad clown show that was Endwalker.


anyway I guess what I'm getting at is that Endwalker was kinda sucky


tl;dr lmaaoooooooo zodiak trance mad his headcanon didnt come true LMAO XD XD I sleep so well at night knowing I have so much more empathy than these edgy villain stans

[Midareyukki]

Coming off from all the emotions Shadowbringers made me feel, the 5.3-5.4 period was the height of my fandom. While I mildly enjoyed FFXIV before, mostly for its antagonist cast and its politics – quite naturally, coming from the evil and edgy fandom of A Song Of Ice And Fire ("NOOOOOO YOU CANT WANT STAKES AND CONSEQUENCES FOR PROTAGONISTS THIS ISNT GAME OF THRONES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!") – it was 5.0 that made me finally care more than my basal level of enjoyment, because even though it had just torpedoed one half of the antagonist build-up (RIP Varys Varis and your empire), it made up for that by propping up the half I cared about more by giving them a very compelling and touching backstory and motivation.

Wasn't one of the early inspirations for this game ASOIAF?

Or was it just to ride the wave of its popularity and then resort to Disneyfication the moment Game of Thrones started dwindling in popularity?

I legit forgot '-'

[ReynTime]

I've heard this patch is so full to the brim with engaging content, 11 days on, that some big name content creator made a video on patch 6.3's most pressing subject: aveyond's comeback forum thread. Apparently our lovely thread has been mentioned in passing, and you know me: every publicity is good publicity!

Is this real? Popular internet person with tens of thousands of fans or more putting some message board user expressing an opinion they dislike about a video game into a negative spotlight for tens or hundreds of thousands of viewers?
Whoever this creator is, if they did this, it's quite simply bullying.

[Teraq]

Is this real? Popular internet person with tens of thousands of fans or more putting some message board user expressing an opinion they dislike about a video game into a negative spotlight for tens or hundreds of thousands of viewers?
Whoever this creator is, if they did this, it's quite simply bullying.

honestly, didn't even watch it myself because I have no patience for any content creator (or for this game) but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkMbfQZ0BZk

Wasn't one of the early inspirations for this game ASOIAF?

Or was it just to ride the wave of its popularity and then resort to Disneyfication the moment Game of Thrones started dwindling in popularity?

I legit forgot '-'

I don't know if there's anything official on this, but certainly, the patch storylines of ARR, HW and SB made me feel very at home, and is there anyone who doesn't refer to that banquet cutscene as "an episode of Game Of Thrones"?

The shift in tone seems multifactorial: the change in main scenario writer, the well-deserved downfall of GoT, the global context of the pandemic perhaps. I don't know how much blame to lay at the feet of the Ancient storyline perhaps lending itself less to "GOT"ness: certainly there were ways to insert a lot more morally gray politicking in Zenos and Fandaniel's machinations, and as it has been repeated countless times in this thread, I also really could have done with the narrative surrounding a certain character being a lot grayer.

[aveyond-dreams]

Is this real? Popular internet person with tens of thousands of fans or more putting some message board user expressing an opinion they dislike about a video game into a negative spotlight for tens or hundreds of thousands of viewers?
Whoever this creator is, if they did this, it's quite simply bullying.

I don't consider what Mr Happy did bullying because to do so would imply that I actually hold his opinion in any regard high enough to affect me. I don't. He's just some random guy on the internet and I know that in Endwalker I was fed a story that wasn't up to the quality we should have gotten and they just doubled down on the bad writing across the patch MSQ and side content.

It's nothing more than a pathetic attempt of his to try and paint those of us who see things for what they are as heretics. So be it then.

[aveyond-dreams]

In any case, I struggle to fathom why we should take anything said by someone who will unconditionally praise the game like Mr Happy seriously. As far as I'm concerned anyone who still defends the state of EW these days is not worth your trust.

[Hurlstone]

In any case, I struggle to fathom why we should take anything said by someone who will unconditionally praise the game like Mr Happy seriously. As far as I'm concerned anyone who still defends the state of EW these days is not worth your trust.

Thats a sad attitude to take. Its like any of us who enjoyed Endwalker saying that anyone negative or expressing valid constructive criticism is not worthy of engagement. The idea that all of us who enjoy the last expansion/previous patches must be blind white knights who repress the truth is a poor stereotype.

[AwesomeJr44]

Its like any of us who enjoyed Endwalker saying that anyone negative or expressing valid constructive criticism is not worthy of engagement.

Sadly, when you have a sizable and vocal portion of a group of people prove themselves to not be worth engaging with, it builds up the sentiment that that group isn't worth engaging with in general. The solution would be for people who like Endwalker to show that there are good faith people to be found amongst them. Although I believe that more of them must exist somewhere, I have yet to see more than a handful of pro-Endwalker people who are not also lunatics, people who argue in bad faith, etc.

[Teraq]

Sadly, when you have a sizable and vocal portion of a group of people prove themselves to not be worth engaging with, it builds up the sentiment that that group isn't worth engaging with in general. The solution would be for people who like Endwalker to show that there are good faith people to be found amongst them. Although I believe that more of them must exist somewhere, I have yet to see more than a handful of pro-Endwalker people who are not also lunatics, people who argue in bad faith, etc.

I have actually seen one person like this in the past few weeks! On Reddit, in fact – but not the cesspools that are FFXIV subs, a more general gaming sub. The person asking me my opinion liked Endwalker and was genuinely curious about why I hated its handling of Ancients when they had never heard of any negative opinion about EW. I replied, naturally, with a massive wall of text, and they thanked me for it and it was all very civil.

I wish more interactions were like this.

But no, instead, this fanbase tends to be as toxic as it gets when you offer criticism. Which is just weird to me, frankly, because it isn't something I had experienced in my recent fandoms of WoW, Pokémon and ASOIAF. Dissent was common and a normal part of discussion. Like, yeah, Game Freak is lazy, Blizzard is Blizzard, and AFFC was slow and the series peaked with ASOS.

I have no idea why FFXIV, in contrast, feels such like a cult.

To say that Endwalker is the sole culprit for my rebound depression last year would be a lie. Because I would ascribe a large part of the blame on how the fanbase has treated me and people like me. We're pushed out of discussion so much that people like the Reddit person I mentioned have never heard negative opinions. I now mostly keep my FFXIV opinions pointedly outside of FFXIV subs, because I'm less likely to get attacked for daring to say something negative about the story. Still get downvoted, of course, but that's par for the course.

Oh, and it is disingenuous (as always with this community) to say we "can't take criticism" because a particular thread has been brought up by a big name content creator and some people might be feeling iffy about that. These people have a massive audience and platform, and FFXIV players are notorious for being rather unhinged outside of the game (which, thankfully, has a draconian enough TOS that it stifles them as they deserve). Now, Mr Happy in particular did not name names, and that's cool of him. But honestly, I am not putting it past some members of his audience to act like psychopaths over a game they've built their identity around, honestly.