What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Teraq]

The horse is deader than the Ancients could ever hope to be.

If only it were. But I wouldn't celebrate so soon – not a mere ten hours away from a continuation of the story that, for all I know, will continue to insist nothing was wrong with what happened.

[Heroman3003]

If only it were. But I wouldn't celebrate so soon – not a mere ten hours away from a continuation of the story that, for all I know, will continue to insist nothing was wrong with what happened.

Considering contents of patch story so far, they haven't insisted on anything over 6.1 or 6.2. The story of the ancients is just over and its very likely that the last we'll see of significant and not just passing focus on the ancients will be in 6.4 with last of Pandaemonium. The story arc around them is over. I think closest we'll get to returning to the topic is if they have one of still-surviving sundered Ascians show up in the story at some point, and even if that happens its almost certain the story of the ancients wont be relevant to whatever they'll be involved in. Nobody is 'insisting' nothing wrong happened in the story itself because the story has accepted that and has simply moved on.

Horse is, in fact, deader than the ancients, and likelyhood of them ever being relevant again past the finale of Pandaemonium is close to 0, so any argument about them is, in fact, just kicking the horse further.

[Teraq]

Considering contents of patch story so far, they haven't insisted on anything over 6.1 or 6.2. The story of the ancients is just over and its very likely that the last we'll see of significant and not just passing focus on the ancients will be in 6.4 with last of Pandaemonium. The story arc around them is over. I think closest we'll get to returning to the topic is if they have one of still-surviving sundered Ascians show up in the story at some point, and even if that happens its almost certain the story of the ancients wont be relevant to whatever they'll be involved in. Nobody is 'insisting' nothing wrong happened in the story itself because the story has accepted that and has simply moved on.

Horse is, in fact, deader than the ancients, and likelyhood of them ever being relevant again past the finale of Pandaemonium is close to 0, so any argument about them is, in fact, just kicking the horse further.

Not even a patch ago we had Venat's crystal turn out not just to be an Apple Tag but a magical cure for Zero, because she's just so good, her blessing will be with us forever. Then we have the Twelve's storyline, likely related to the Ancients as well. Pandaemonium, as you've said, is literally the only story I'm looking forward to, and I'm ready for it to be terrible. Let's not forget Codex entries! How's that forging ahead™ from losing your sister working out for you, Vrtra?

Or how about that Gymnasion description on the 6.3 website? Funny how only the EN version makes the Ancients sound like bored demigods while JP, FR and DE never make any mention of that, instead portraying them as excited to see more of Azem's familiar…

I, in fact, can hardly wait for Ancients to actually stop being relevant. Because any prospect of them being touched any further makes me cringe. And yet I wish this wasn't the case.

[Heroman3003]

Not even a patch ago we had Venat's crystal turn out not just to be an Apple Tag but a magical cure for Zero, because she's just so good, her blessing will be with us forever. Then we have the Twelve's storyline, likely related to the Ancients as well. Pandaemonium, as you've said, is literally the only story I'm looking forward to, and I'm ready for it to be terrible. Let's not forget Codex entries! How's that forging ahead™ from losing your sister working out for you, Vrtra?

Or how about that Gymnasion description on the 6.3 website? Funny how only the EN version makes the Ancients sound like bored demigods while JP, FR and DE never make any mention of that, instead portraying them as excited to see more of Azem's familiar…

I, in fact, can hardly wait for Ancients to actually stop being relevant. Because any prospect of them being touched any further makes me cringe. And yet I wish this wasn't the case.

I doubt Twelve will tie into Ancients any harder than they will into Ascians, as while association with Convocation was mentioned once, I doubt its gonna be elaborated that hard, nor expect any 'it was ancients fault all along' reveals. Crystal being a cure is no surprise, and blessing sticking with us is kinda a very important point because of protection against stuff like tempering and such. Thats not us coming back to ancients storyline in the slightest, as they werent even really mentioned in relation to that. Its just a convinient source of aether.

As for gymnasium, its not tied into any actual story so I'm not really counting that as ancient-related story, and moreso as a way to give Elpis as a location some approprietly unique content.

And ancients will never really truly stop being 'relevant' simply due to role they play in world's mythos, its just that their story arc is over and is unlikely to be revisited in some brand new light or with some brand new reveals. Ancients didnt care about life, got an unfair, yet ironically fitting form of divine retribution, two different ways of fighting against their nihilism were portrayed, they were willing to commit unspeakable crimes against life just for their own gain and had to be stopped, etc etc. We have seen the whole story in light that portrays each character in the ancients' story at their best and at their worst and we'll not get anything beyond that.

[jameseoakes]

And ancients will never really truly stop being 'relevant' simply due to role they play in world's mythos, its just that their story arc is over and is unlikely to be revisited in some brand new light or with some brand new reveals. Ancients didnt care about life, got an unfair, yet ironically fitting form of divine retribution, two different ways of fighting against their nihilism were portrayed, they were willing to commit unspeakable crimes against life just for their own gain and had to be stopped, etc etc. We have seen the whole story in light that portrays each character in the ancients' story at their best and at their worst and we'll not get anything beyond that.

I don't get what you on about with the idea that the ancients didn't care about life that's the opposite of what the story showed they are deeply invested in the life cycle on Ethyris so I've got no idea what you are on about

[Heroman3003]

I don't get what you on about with the idea that the ancients didn't care about life that's the opposite of what the story showed they are deeply invested in the life cycle on Ethyris so I've got no idea what you are on about

You're right, I made a minor mistake. They did not care about individual lives, only idea of life as a whole. Not seeing trees in the forest so to speak. They put no worth into individual lives, be it that of the creatures they made to populate their little paradise, those of their familiars, sapient beings capable of thought or even lives of their own, just giving up and dying once they felt like they've done their due. Both Venat and Hermes were antithesis to that idea, believing that individual lives and little things really do matter and putting the grand design ahed of that, like ancient society as a whole did was a mistake. Though those two were resisting the idea in vastly different ways. That nihilistic carelessness about their own lives is probably the main reason Final Days could spread in the ancient Etheiris, despite supposedly being a perfect paradise, rather than sparking from horror and desperation (not at first at least), it most likely sprung from apathy and complacency.

[Brinne]

You're right, I made a minor mistake. They did not care about individual lives, only idea of life as a whole. Not seeing trees in the forest so to speak. They put no worth into individual lives, be it that of the creatures they made to populate their little paradise, those of their familiars, sapient beings capable of thought or even lives of their own, just giving up and dying once they felt like they've done their due. Both Venat and Hermes were antithesis to that idea, believing that individual lives and little things really do matter and putting the grand design ahed of that, like ancient society as a whole did was a mistake. Though those two were resisting the idea in vastly different ways. That nihilistic carelessness about their own lives is probably the main reason Final Days could spread in the ancient Etheiris, despite supposedly being a perfect paradise, rather than sparking from horror and desperation (not at first at least), it most likely sprung from apathy and complacency.

And then sometimes, there are takes that I can really only go "huh?" at, not gonna lie.

[jameseoakes]

You're right, I made a minor mistake. They did not care about individual lives, only idea of life as a whole. Not seeing trees in the forest so to speak. They put no worth into individual lives, be it that of the creatures they made to populate their little paradise, those of their familiars, sapient beings capable of thought or even lives of their own, just giving up and dying once they felt like they've done their due. Both Venat and Hermes were antithesis to that idea, believing that individual lives and little things really do matter and putting the grand design ahed of that, like ancient society as a whole did was a mistake. Though those two were resisting the idea in vastly different ways. That nihilistic carelessness about their own lives is probably the main reason Final Days could spread in the ancient Etheiris, despite supposedly being a perfect paradise, rather than sparking from horror and desperation (not at first at least), it most likely sprung from apathy and complacency.

You take on the ancients does not match mine, though I find the idea that Hermes cares about induvial lives questionable after the acts he does partially with the individual meitia. I also find the idea that the flaws in the ancients society meaning the deserved extermination to be frankly vile

Edit: It also bothers me that the ancients are held to a different standard to the sundered, we see Y'sthola sending familiars into a hell dimension and the Sharlayans abandoning there familiars in Dravaina so it seems odd that one group got the killed for it while the other are treated so well

[Xirean]

There is no simple "talking about it". Like I said in the rest of the post, it's just people repeating the same points over and sitting in their extremes with nothing new to be said. I'm not policing what you can and can't talk about, I'm pointing out that people just keep repeating the same thing expecting a different result, which is the definition of insanity.

It would be different if there was actual discussion that could go back and forth but you yourself are sitting in a world where to you the story turned into "eugenics is good", which again like I had said, doesn't exactly leave room for actual discussion except to have the serpent eat its tail and the cycle continues.

We're just saying things at each other and not with each other at this point and there's nothing new to say and there never will be without new content, which is doubtful.

If you're concerned about people saying the story turned into "eugenics good" and that being an "extreme take" them I'm not really sure what response can be given. Because the story did in fact do that when it tried to justify Venat's actions instead of making them an accident. That's really the only change that could have prevented a lot of the issues people have with the story. Although I personally think that the cutscene which plays after leaving Elpis was as a whole very poorly done and would have preferred much more time be spent on it considering it's the final wrap up and justification of that part of the story.

I don't get what you on about with the idea that the ancients didn't care about life that's the opposite of what the story showed they are deeply invested in the life cycle on Ethyris so I've got no idea what you are on about

"I don't consider you truly alive so I would not consider it to be murder if I kill you."

[Kazhar]

"I don't consider you truly alive so I would not consider it to be murder if I kill you."

That's one Ancient, and a deeply broken one. It would be like judging the entire Sundered society using only Yotsuyu quotes.