What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Teraq]

spitting the truth on Ascian tempering being bs

All of this and more: I think the only solid evidence we have on Convocation tempering is Altima's crystal commenting on her(?) soul turning. But we have no idea how it affected their thought process all the same.

Given that we know tempering lingers after death as you brought up, and both Emet-Selch and Fandaniel were perfectly able to act against their "god", I'm going to write Zodiark's tempering away as irrelevant ultimately.

People won't, though. You and I plainly know "THE CONVOCATION WAS TEMPERED!!!!" is going to be used, again and again, as ammo for the CONVOCATION BAD / BIASED / MISGUIDED narrative by people with a certain agenda.

And how convenient it is that it turned out Mother never tempered anyone, herself! She's so good, you guys. Why did we ever worry about her being a primal?

Although I think I would've preferred that consistency being ignored in favor of her going through the same kind of degradation of mind and motive that Elidibus did.

File this one under "things 5.3 brought up they didn't do anything with", along with Elidibus's character, the rest of the Convocation existing and Fandaniel's crystal memory being curiously choppy.

I'd like to genuinely ask "why the hell would they bring this up with Elidibus but never mention it when we deal with his counterpart?", but I know the answer: his amnesia was a plot contrivance so they wouldn't have to deal with incorporating the new Ascian backstory into the longest-standing (and still alive) antagonist too much. Because then you'd start asking "why would the guy who is literally the Convocation's mediator not be the one to reveal this whole damned backstory to get us to sympathize with their side, rather than a character who was just introduced for this expansion?", and the answer to that is "because Ishikawa plays favorites".

[Brinne]

re: the Emet and Tempering conversation, I personally see it as more "influence" than control, if I had to say, but I also remember a conversation I had with a friend about this that has always stuck with me since: that ultimately, Zodiark is literally formed as the personification of the collective will of his people and their cries for salvation. So whether you take it strictly literally or not: Emet is still ultimately in a position where he feels forced to suppress his own feelings and will in favor of that of his people, and that's what truly matters so far as how it informs his character and actions.

Which led to a more general conversation about possibly interpreting Primals as an aspect of We Live In A Society, but that's not as, uh, relevant to the current discussion.

[Teraq]

I feel like, if anything, this is even more of an argument for Zodiark's tempering not mattering, because the way I see Shadowbringers, Emet is pointedly not suppressing his emotions throughout, particularly not in Amaurot. He might even had defeated us, was he not a sentimental fool who had an inkling the WoL was Azem.

And then of course there is him backstabbing the last hope of his people in 5.3. I often see it argued that tempering fades upon death, but the only evidence we actually have points to the contrary:

As curious a phrase as it is, I've never taken that quote to imply he couldn't change course - he did after all in 5.3, when he comes to the WoL's assistance in SoS (really, as far back as 5.0, although this was more debatable back then but became clearer with post-5.0 interviews.) Fandaniel too was able to go as far as assuming control of the primal - and lest anyone say he's sundered and thus the Aetherial Sea would wash this away (ditto with Emet in 5.3 after his 'death'), Emet-Selch had another quote to the effect of the Ascians preferring the souls of the original summoners because faith in Zodiark is seared onto them, so that it's far from clear that this would remove tempering.

[anhaato]

So whether you take it strictly literally or not: Emet is still ultimately in a position where he feels forced to suppress his own feelings and will in favor of that of his people, and that's what truly matters so far as how it informs his character and actions.

I normally agree with the stuff you post but this is just wrong. Emet never suppressed his emotions. He created Amaurot specifically as an outpouring of his emotions. His downfall was literally his unsuppressed emotions leading him to let us into his hideout and give us the chance to defeat him. Unless you're referring to before the sundering, in which case I don't see how that's relevant.

[CrownySuccubus]

I normally agree with the stuff you post but this is just wrong. Emet never suppressed his emotions. He created Amaurot specifically as an outpouring of his emotions. His downfall was literally his unsuppressed emotions leading him to let us into his hideout and give us the chance to defeat him. Unless you're referring to before the sundering, in which case I don't see how that's relevant.

When asked about the amount of detail he put into Fake Amaurot, he states that he "went a little overboard", indicating that he was trying to show restraint, but couldn't help himself. In this instance, Brinne would be correct: he was trying to suppress his true feelings, but being sentimental as he is, it just didn't work.

[Brinne]

I normally agree with the stuff you post but this is just wrong. Emet never suppressed his emotions. He created Amaurot specifically as an outpouring of his emotions. His downfall was literally his unsuppressed emotions leading him to let us into his hideout and give us the chance to defeat him. Unless you're referring to before the sundering, in which case I don't see how that's relevant.

What I am referring to is his feelings regarding the Rejoinings, and his personal exhaustion and desire and temptation to stop. Emet is characterized as a fundamentally kind-hearted person who does not actually take joy in hurting others (seeing others in pain tends to make him viscerally uncomfortable, actually.) Sometimes he puts on a show as "Solus" to get himself in-character as a crazy madman, but we spend two expansions breaking down that facade and understanding who he actually is behind it. That he was deeply internally conflicted, and often lying to himself to help himself keep going, regarding the Sundered and the Rejoinings, is pretty much flat out text.

That is what I mean about "suppressing his feelings." Emet hates what he feels like he has to do, but he also feels like he has to do it - because of his obligations to his people. A large part of him wishes he could just let it go and rest - but he cannot, because of his obligations to his people. It's part of the complexity of his character that leads him to do seemingly contradictory things - consciously or subconsciously, setting up the circumstances that led to the possibility of his defeat (because he wants out), while simultaneously pushing himself beyond his limits and absolutely giving it his all in the name of fighting for his people (because he also genuinely wants to save them) when actually facing off against the Warrior of Light.

Emet-Selch Is An Extremely Good Character.