What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[jameseoakes]

I mean, we were friends with him at the time, before it all fell apart at Ktisis. We connected. So it feels to me that everything we see him go through after that is watching a friend go off the rails and hoping he can be brought back to his senses.

I can't say I felt I really connected with that closely, I certainly don't think he was written in away espically with how abusive his relationship with Meition is. Also is betrayal of us rather overrights any feel of comrade with him

[Iscah]

I can't say I felt I really connected with that closely, I certainly don't think he was written in away espically with how abusive his relationship with Meition is. Also is betrayal of us rather overrights any feel of comrade with him

I didn't see his relationship to Meteion as abusive. I saw that he cares for her and wants her to be happy; tries to shield her from things that would upset her. He might not have done the right thing objectively, but not for lack of intention.

My impression as the Elpis arc played out is that we-the-player were being asked to make the same switch of perception of Hermes that we had previously been asked to make for the Ascians as a whole: that the once caricatured villains were in fact good people at their core who had some tragic reason to do the awful things they later did.

If I am expected to forgive the many monstrosities that Emet-Selch carried out in 12,000 years of rejoinings – and at a more personal level, the overtly abusive way he treats Varis in his early scenes – then it seems that Hermes is intended to be viewed with the same attitude of "he meant well, so we're supposed to like him now".

I don't agree with what Hermes did, but I see it as driven by good intentions turned sour – his search for meaning and his compassion for other creatures, and a desire to protect Meteion and keep her safe. His leap from there to "destroyer of worlds and eraser of memories" is rather too abrupt, but that's tangled up in a lot of the other narrative issues that the game has. The writers wanted him to be sympathetic while needing him to line up with the villain he becomes, and they needed the memory wipe to happen to preserve the existing narrative, and I think the characters got wrangled into the necessary events rather than having story written to fit the characters.

Basically, I think Hermes is intended by the writer(s) to be a sympathetic character, whether it was successfully conveyed or not, but it's the intent that determines he should appear among the "sympathetic characters of Elpis" group.

[jameseoakes]

I didn't see his relationship to Meteion as abusive. I saw that he cares for her and wants her to be happy; tries to shield her from things that would upset her. He might not have done the right thing objectively, but not for lack of intention.

My impression as the Elpis arc played out is that we-the-player were being asked to make the same switch of perception of Hermes that we had previously been asked to make for the Ascians as a whole: that the once caricatured villains were in fact good people at their core who had some tragic reason to do the awful things they later did.

If I am expected to forgive the many monstrosities that Emet-Selch carried out in 12,000 years of rejoinings – and at a more personal level, the overtly abusive way he treats Varis in his early scenes – then it seems that Hermes is intended to be viewed with the same attitude of "he meant well, so we're supposed to like him now".

I don't agree with what Hermes did, but I see it as driven by good intentions turned sour – his search for meaning and his compassion for other creatures, and a desire to protect Meteion and keep her safe. His leap from there to "destroyer of worlds and eraser of memories" is rather too abrupt, but that's tangled up in a lot of the other narrative issues that the game has. The writers wanted him to be sympathetic while needing him to line up with the villain he becomes, and they needed the memory wipe to happen to preserve the existing narrative, and I think the characters got wrangled into the necessary events rather than having story written to fit the characters.

Basically, I think Hermes is intended by the writer(s) to be a sympathetic character, whether it was successfully conveyed or not, but it's the intent that determines he should appear among the "sympathetic characters of Elpis" group.

I don't see how he was suppose to have really been sympathetic with how he was written. He didn't try and keep keep Meteion or her sisters safe he sent them out in the universe with no thought or planning that is not a kind thing to do. He then keeps on around a massive empath who then has to endure and suffer through his mood swings and to be honest there realationship felt like abusive/controlling father and daughter than anything else to me. The man was nasty, I don't see how he was a good man, good people don't at a drop of a hat set about violating his 'apparent' friends minds and orcastrting the murder of his entire culture over nothing, he's a vile man.

Edit: I just don't see what was sympathetic about him, in the way other characters have been. I don't find what's tradgic about him or the good intentions he had behind the monstrous things he does.

[Iscah]

I don't see how he was suppose to have really been sympathetic with how he was written. He didn't try and keep keep Meteion or her sisters safe he sent them out in the universe with no thought or planning that is not a kind thing to do. He then keeps on around a massive empath who then has to endure and suffer through his mood swings and to be honest there realationship felt like abusive/controlling father and daughter than anything else to me.

The thing is, he did have "thought and planning" in sending out the Meteia, but it was very idealistic thought – that they would travel the universe and discover wonders and learn the meaning of life, then return to a joyous homecoming.

As for Meteion experiencing his emotions, I think he actually tries to shield her from a lot of that, like he does when he asks us to take her outside during the meeting when he's stressed and upset.

It seems likely to me that it was probably something he didn't consider when creating the Meteia but, in line with his thoughts on saving other creations at all costs, he wouldn't dream of unmaking her to correct the fault (because he would see that as abusive) and instead tries his best to look after her as she is.

[Teraq]

(snip)
Basically, I think Hermes is intended by the writer(s) to be a sympathetic character, whether it was successfully conveyed or not, but it's the intent that determines he should appear among the "sympathetic characters of Elpis" group.

Fully agree that this was the writers' intent, and I'm not sure how well the lukewarm (as far as I know) reception to Hermes reflects on that. Like they tried to get lightning in a bottle a second time and it didn't land, and delightfully out of touch YoshiP proceeded to ask "but why didn't you guys like him like you did Emet-Selch?". Cringe. At least Ishikawa realized he wouldn't be popular, but I still find her taking his "judgment" of humanity seriously, going as far as to suggest it was the first step for humanity in a rhetorical question, very eyebrow-raising, to say the least.

As you pointed out, a lot of it can probably be blamed on the story issues in general. Endwalker had a lot on its plate, cramming what was seemingly two expansions worth of plot into one. Hermes went from 1 to 11 really fast, and the fact that I couldn't relate to or care about his motivations/existential crisis certainly didn't help.

If we had seen him in the course of the MSQ, he would almost certainly be there. But in the existing layout of the narrative, it is difficult.

And this is a particularly egregious fault of Endwalker, if you ask me. Not to get on my Elidibus soapbox again, but... boy it sure was unpredictable of them not to feature Literally Zodiark's Acting Consciousness that has been a lurking antagonist and slowly built up over 8 years as a main player in this finale of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark story arc that has Venat front and center! Consider my expectations well and truly subverted.

Why, yes, I enjoy this of course, anything else would have been predictable and that would have made the story bad! Hahaha... ha...

Don't remind me how we only had him in for 5 minutes in his little snuggie ghost man form as he kills himself to send us back to the past. brb hiding the pain... though honestly, I think it wouldn't have been too odd to feature him and his OG short self, just with the hood/mask on and looking away/down at some of the Convocation stones in his hand.

Hermes didn't have the same amount of time to think about what he was doing, he made a decision in the moment based on what he was currently feeling.
Emet had plenty of time over the years to consider it and he still kept going with it.
Even if Emet had a more understandable motive he wasn't acting impulsively like Hermes was.

I'm not sure if this was intended to be a positive point about Hermes's motivations or not, but personally I can't say this isn't doing him any favors in terms of relatability and understanding of the character.

I also don't think that a character like Hermes can be a likeable or sympathetic character if you hyperfocus on what he did and that's the only thing you really think about.

Considering his rather short screen time, I'm not sure what else to focus on. His shallow (due to time constraints I suppose) motivations? Didn't land for me, I found his obsession over death and overwhelming affection for barely sentient beings like sprites pretty annoying from the get-go, and that was before he got worse and went all preachy vegan on me. His looks, perhaps? I'll give him that, he absolutely got the best Elezen face, I like his hair and eye colors and his skin tone is a pleasing shade of not-completely-porcelain-white. (Twitter artists seem to suffer from a serious case of "I haven't played this game without high contrast shaders for a very long time" on this particular subject, though.)

Especially since some people for some bizarre reason are already set on hating basically anything the devs do and 99% of their presence on the forum is just that, if you set your mind to hating something then it's very easy to find reasons to do it.
(…) I don't think it's really about people just '' thinking about it '' it's about how they do it and the intent behind it.
If you go into something with the intent to find problems you're going to find it.

I can't speak for other people here, but this isn't my case. I still enjoy the gameplay and play weekly on various characters. I loved the story of Shadowbringers and I was super hyped for what was to come during 5.2–5.4. Granted, when Endwalker was first revealed, I was skeptical (the announcement that the plot would be wrapping up the cause of the Final Days in particular in 6.0 had me worried), and my skepticism kept growing throughout 2021, yet at the same time I had these flashes of hype. I still gave Endwalker a chance as I played it, and I can't lie, in spite of the disappointing 83 trial, I found myself on a serotonin high for most of the 85–early 86 part. Then it all came crashing down and I was just left with disappointment so massive it affected my RL mood god I am so cringe I'm sorry just telling the facts

[Lucida3b]

And this is a particularly egregious fault of Endwalker, if you ask me. Not to get on my Elidibus soapbox again, but... boy it sure was unpredictable of them not to feature Literally Zodiark's Acting Consciousness that has been a lurking antagonist and slowly built up over 8 years as a main player in this finale of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark story arc that has Venat front and center! Consider my expectations well and truly subverted.

Why, yes, I enjoy this of course, anything else would have been predictable and that would have made the story bad! Hahaha... ha...
(
can't speak for other people here, but this isn't my case. I still enjoy the gameplay and play weekly on various characters. I loved the story of Shadowbringers and I was super hyped for what was to come during 5.2–5.4. Granted, when Endwalker was first revealed, I was skeptical (the announcement that the plot would be wrapping up the cause of the Final Days in particular in 6.0 had me worried), and my skepticism kept growing throughout 2021, yet at the same time I had these flashes of hype. I still gave Endwalker a chance as I played it, and I can't lie, in spite of the disappointing 83 trial, I found myself on a serotonin high for most of the 85–early 86 part. Then it all came crashing down and I was just left with disappointment so massive it affected my RL mood god I am so cringe I'm sorry just telling the facts

Don't cringe, People get emotionally invested into things! I nowadays find the whole 'just stop reading if you dont like it' or 'just dont play' a stupid thought process nowadays, People invest there time into this product, people like the product. We often use stories like this as a reprieve from the real world or as a way to see justice be done it least in a fantasy world.

Of course you would be upset at all of this, It's not wrong to be upset at a story.