What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Dude if you like the story even the dark parts I do NOT CARE. If you like the ancients or the ascians or the garleans or the sundered, I don't care at all. I'd gladly discuss the pros and cons of the story. I've mentioned before that I thought the story would be better if some characters actually died this expansion. Because it's a story and things can make it better or worse. When we are discussing the justifications of characters however we are talking about morality. Emet and the Ascians had their own justification for doing what they were doing. I understand their goal. I understand their pain. I relate to that pain. But I would fight them a thousand times over to prevent them from achieving their goal because their methods cause more genocides. They judge existing people as inferior, worthless, irrelevant husks. They bring a lot of nuance to the story and I wish that we could have made an AU for them. I still think we could given that we can still go to Elpis. I'm endlessly bothered that we can't make that AU. That does not mean that I agree that rejoining is a good thing. It's not. It kills millions. Placing the memories of dead ancients into reincarnated bodies is overwriting the new existing person and comparable to murder. They are a fun antagonist, but I do not agree with their philosophy and will argue against people that say their philosophy is actually justified or good. It's a good tragic story that I wish we could explore more, but that's where it ends for me.

Likewise the sundering is also genocide and also bad and Venat is just as if not more evil. Every bad thing the Ascians do can be placed at her feet as well plus some.

Okay, and youre absolutely free to believe that. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and thats fine, thats not what i have a problem with. I have a problem with you equating someones opinion over a video game to how they must be in real life. Thats what i take an issue with being its just....inherently wrong.

As for the rejoinings. Again, for idk how many times i have to say this, the rejoinings would cause a lot of death yes, no one is disputing this. But as someone i know once put it, its akin to ripping off the bandaid. The sundering in the long run is going to cause more death than the rejoinings ever would because its unnatural, and the deaths related to young age,illness,war etc is due purely to the sundering. These things will continue and be multiplied by however many shards are remaining. If the rejoinings came to pass there would be one event of mass death and then the future lives would all live longer and be immune to illness etc, thus causing less death in the long run. Leaving the sundered world as it is, is just as bad if not far worse than the rejoinings, even from just a numerical and statistical viewpoint.

[Xirean]

Okay, and youre absolutely free to believe that. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and thats fine, thats not what i have a problem with. I have a problem with you equating someones opinion over a video game to how they must be in real life. Thats what i take an issue with being its just....inherently wrong.

As for the rejoinings. Again, for idk how many times i have to say this, the rejoinings would cause a lot of death yes, no one is disputing this. But as someone i know once put it, its akin to ripping off the bandaid. The sundering in the long run is going to cause more death than the rejoinings ever would because its unnatural, and the deaths related to young age,illness,war etc is due purely to the sundering. These things will continue and be multiplied by however many shards are remaining. If the rejoinings came to pass there would be one event of mass death and then the future lives would all live longer and be immune to illness etc, thus causing less death in the long run. Leaving the sundered world as it is, is just as bad if not far worse than the rejoinings, even from just a numerical and statistical viewpoint.

Here's the issue with doing that. It judges that peoples lives now are not good and the lives that they become IF they survive would be better without asking those people first. If we took a census of every single life on the star and shard in question and they all agreed that they would be ok with doing a rejoining, then I would have no problem. Just doing it regardless of if people are informed or agree is the problem. People are allowed to make meaning out of their lives, fleeting or not. We can't just decide what's better for them without asking their opinion.

If only Venat did a census or better yet, a Google Forms Survey perhaps she may have found the vast majority of the Star being opposed to her ludicrous plan. Though, given her major character flaw being arrogance, she would have likely ignored the results and done what she did anyway.

Likewise the sundering is also genocide and also bad and Venat is just as if not more evil. Every bad thing the Ascians do can be placed at her feet as well plus some.

[aveyond-dreams]

We can't just decide what's better for them without asking their opinion.

If only Venat did a census or better yet, a Google Forms Survey perhaps she may have found the vast majority of the Star being opposed to her ludicrous plan. Though, given her major character flaw being arrogance, she would have likely ignored the results and done what she did anyway.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Here's the issue with doing that. It judges that peoples lives now are not good and the lives that they become IF they survive would be better without asking those people first. If we took a census of every single life on the star and shard in question and they all agreed that they would be ok with doing a rejoining, then I would have no problem. Just doing it regardless of if people are informed or agree is the problem. People are allowed to make meaning out of their lives, fleeting or not. We can't just decide what's better for them without asking their opinion.

Okay but... this i shwat ironworks did. They made a decision that would potentially doom billions of lives and it was fine and dandy to do that and thats never questioned. But when the ancients want to do it THEN its a problem. Its not so much judging the lives themselves as it is preventing more death.

[Xirean]

Okay but... this i shwat ironworks did. They made a decision that would potentially doom billions of lives and it was fine and dandy to do that and thats never questioned. But when the ancients want to do it THEN its a problem. Its not so much judging the lives themselves as it is preventing more death.

If what the ironworks and G'raha did to make ShB possible actually destroyed that AU then I agree, it's not ok. I don't know if it did destroy that AU. G'raha and the Crystal tower are still here. By all evidence before me I can only conclude that the other AU still exists. But in the event it was destroyed, then yeah, bad.

[KizuyaKatogami]

If what the ironworks and G'raha did to make ShB possible actually destroyed that AU then I agree, it's not ok. I don't know if it did destroy that AU. G'raha and the Crystal tower are still here. By all evidence before me I can only conclude that the other AU still exists. But in the event it was destroyed, then yeah, bad.

They knew it was a possibility and went along with it anyways. The point is, genocide in the world of 14 is very complicated, a lot of the time its used as a way for the protagonists to pave the way forward and isnt really judged. It seems that its only seen as wrong in game when its the antagonists doing it even if it would mean less death in the long run.

[Xirean]

They knew it was a possibility and went along with it anyways. The point is, genocide in the world of 14 is very complicated, a lot of the time its used as a way for the protagonists to pave the way forward and isnt really judged. It seems that its only seen as wrong in game when its the antagonists doing it even if it would mean less death in the long run.

What the characters consider wrong is not what we have to consider wrong. It's either bad always or good always. I will not make an exception for genocide.

[KizuyaKatogami]

What the characters consider wrong is not what we have to consider wrong. It's either bad always or good always. I will not make an exception for genocide.

Okay and thats your opinion. Unfortunately though that doesnt seem to be what the game agrees on and thats what we have to talk about. Not really what we believe but what the game believes. My point is, the protagonists have only succeeded and been around due ot genocide, so i dont think its entirely wrong for the ancients to want to bring back what they had taken from them, especially if it results in less death in the world overall.

[KageTokage]

If what the ironworks and G'raha did to make ShB possible actually destroyed that AU then I agree, it's not ok. I don't know if it did destroy that AU. G'raha and the Crystal tower are still here. By all evidence before me I can only conclude that the other AU still exists. But in the event it was destroyed, then yeah, bad.

One of the Tales from the Shadows sidestories confirms that the Exarch's timeline was indeed split off into its own reality...though I don't even want to think about the deeper specifics of how it exists despite the fact the causal loop would've broken by our death.