What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Rulakir]

Unless/until we get slapped with some hot new content that will give me an excuse to bring out a fresh new tidal wave of Hydaelyn Discourse. Little do the people know that the drive-by cracks about beating a dead horse actually give me power.

I will happily continue to beat that horse with you. :P Like PawPaw mentioned earlier, I hadn't considered that Venat had no concern for the souls trapped within Zodiark either but, then again, she's shown a general lack of concern for souls in general so maybe it's just consistent. -_-

She's still the #1 reason I didn't like EW closely tied with the time loop where, screw you, you don't get to change anything after an expansion that introduced an AU.

The only reason I'm upset about the loss of a Garlemald expansion is it would imply we would've gotten an expansion dedicated to the Ancients, so in that way I feel robbed. The Ancients are the foundation of the game's lore, so having to share the stage with Garlemald, Thavnair, and the ridiculousness that is Sharlayan filler was irritating. It also felt like the moon was either cut short or they had no idea what to do with it so purposely kept it brief.

I was thinking about the intros to the other expansions. HW, we've been exiled and have to seek refuge within the historically closed to the public Ishgard, where we must rely on ties formed with Haurchefant and Aymeric. I also liked that we had to prove our worthiness to be there even if that was short-lived. ShB, we've been teleported to a random location in an unfamiliar purple forest, the sky is blazing, the first person we come in contact with tells us they haven't had a night sky in a century. This time we don't have any Scion in tow, we're all alone and wondering WTF is going on and it was *chef's kiss*.

EW? Here, let's go on an hour long tour of Sharlayan where if you're not interested in a detailed explanation of the purpose of every building in the city you're going to have a bad time.

[Brinne]

The only reason I'm upset about the loss of a Garlemald expansion is it would imply we would've gotten an expansion dedicated to the Ancients, so in that way I feel robbed. The Ancients are the foundation of the game's lore, so having to share the stage with Garlemald, Thavnair, and the ridiculousness that is Sharlayan filler was irritating. It also felt like the moon was either cut short or they had no idea what to do with it so purposely kept it brief.

Mm, I can sympathize with that feeling. Like I said, if I went full "screw story integrity, the heart wants what it wants", FFXIV would become All Ancients All The Time - and I wouldn't hesitate to cut Labyrinthos in favor of another Garlemald or Elpis zone, but my preference between them is definitely Elpis. But then again, I think part of EW's problem beyond the dreaded Venat Discourse is that when you look at its core elements, it does come down to All Ancients, Baby. The cause of the Final Days? Inter-Ancient drama. The Sundering? More inter-Ancient drama. The people with emotional investment and strong reactions to the specific form of this threat? The Ancient characters. The people present when the threat took shape? The people with a personal vendetta against this threat for the wrongs they committed? Ancients. They form the crux of the plot and the bulk of investment in the shape it took.

And not a single one of the Scions particularly cares about the Ancients. None of them have anything to say - and why would they? - about Venat's choice beyond the functionality of it, or Emet-Selch's plight, or Hermes and Meteion, who are absolutely nobody to them. All of that connection is laid solely on the player and their silent protagonist, and it leads to that weird, alienating feeling where the Scions start feeling like they're all blobbing together into a group that speaks with one generically supportive, often trope-driven voice. They just have no link to the actual plot and no interest in it, either. Shadowbringers was really good at pointing the Scions in different directions to link them, in specific and individual ways, to people on the First so there was a sense they truly cared about its fate, and were invested in the wellbeing of the people there, so this was a bit of a stark contrast in that regard.

I remember joking about Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus's big return in their final scene from the Scions' perspective. Estinien just standing there going "Yeah I have no idea who these people are" and Thancred just zoning out because he has less than zero interest and Alphinaud just kind of shuffling his feet and trying to look anywhere else and waiting for their conversation with the WoL to be done. The bit where we explain Elpis to the Scions certainly didn't help in that regard, either - why are they reacting like I just read them the weather report or something. What did I tell them. Elpis was so emotionally charged and a super harrowing experience for the WoL. Do they know WoL is onboard the Emet train now. Are they okay with us being onboard the Emet train. What did we even say about Hermes. No comment about how the Final Days originated from an innocent figure, or anything? What is happening. Oh, we're building a spaceship now, uh, okay.

I was also not particularly captivated by EW's intro compared to the other expansions. I did Labyrinthos first and, uh, did not enjoy it. So I definitely agree with you that it doesn't have a great hook, and doesn't really do a great job establishing tone considering the stakes. I do file that under "messy, but forgivable if not for the big stuff" overall, though.

That poor horse, though. With our combined efforts its condition is probably well beyond the state of "broken pinata dismembered on the floor" at this point. Ah well, back to beating!

[Rulakir]

Like I said, if I went full "screw story integrity, the heart wants what it wants", FFXIV would become All Ancients All The Time - and I wouldn't hesitate to cut Labyrinthos in favor of another Garlemald or Elpis zone, but my preference between them is definitely Elpis. But then again, I think part of EW's problem beyond the dreaded Venat Discourse is that when you look at its core elements, it does come down to All Ancients, Baby.

Not that it's at all plausible (unless they make a FFXIV-2 :P), but I'm at the point I'd rather just play as Azem. The unsundered world, their life, their friends, eclipses the WoL's in every way. It's not that I didn't enjoy FFXIV up to this point (except ARR), but I fell in love with the Ancients. My issue with returning to an adventurer isn't about 'how do you top fighting a cosmic threat' it's 'how do I move past the best characters and lore in the game to return to the Scions and Eorzea', bleh. Seriously, just let me go save some grapes from a volcano with Emet & Hythlodaeus in tow and I'm happy.

I am just baffled by Yoshi-P wanting to rush the conclusion of the most popular arc by a significant margin not to mention close the book on the fundamental lore of the world, and for what? I don't need a break after EW I need a hook, especially as EW did not have a happy ending for me.

And not a single one of the Scions particularly cares about the Ancients.

This part is frustrating too. It's an isolated set of experiences for the WoL/player that I doubt the Scions can understand and I'm not convinced they care either. I wanted to smack the grin off Alphinaud's face after the Hades trial. I frequently wish this story hadn't been told in an MMO because I feel like we suffer a lot for the sake of ambiguity so everyone can maintain their personal headcanon. Regardless of the fact that my WoL would've had an issue with everything Venat did, not the least of which was ending my original existence and then manipulating my reincarnation, losing Emet and Hythlodaeus again was rather traumatic. Much like ShB, it's a happy ending for everyone else because they're not emotionally invested in the Ancients nor do they have a connection with their unsundered selves like we do. Course, on the flip side, the game makes it seem like Haurchefant's death is the worst grief my WoL has ever experienced and, no, not even close. I didn't even cry until Edmont's reaction to it, which broke my heart.

I've joked that 5.0 was basically a love triangle between the WoL, Emet, and the Crystal Exarch. It's quite amusing to play through it with that lens. Needless to say, I imagine G'raha is thrilled for Emet to be out of the picture. :P

[Lauront]

He better watch out - Themis has joined the fray. Although sadly, probably not for too long. As for the horse, it has been imbued with phoenix traits, so by all means, carry on the beating.

[Nekokaori]

I like the concept of a "foil" to an MMO protagonist on its face, because by its nature, an MMO protagonist (or player character) is a completely different beast than anything else in the world they dwell.

One of the reasons I've always fully admitted to Zenos that my primary reason for fighting is to seek stronger opponents and live in the moment is because, on a self-aware level, it's true. I became an adventurer (bought a sub) because I want to face challenges (dungeons, raids. etc.), get stronger (level up, improve mechanics, etc.), and have fun (aka, having fun). The story is a secondary concern. Yeah, I want to right wrongs, help the helpless, and investigate the secrets of Etheirys, but if that were all there was to it, I wouldn't be playing between patches. And besides that, the story is on rails. I can't affect the outcome or tell my own unique story, so it really has nothing to do with me.

I liked the concept of Zenos wanting to be the one to finally challenge us (because getting told how invincible and super amazing I am at everything all the time gets kinda repetitive). But Zenos screwed himself over (both in-story and on a meta level) because by starting an apocalyptic event, he is literally beneath my concern now. Even if I weren't disgusted by what he did to his own people and helped Fandaniel do to others, the fact that his goal is so juvenile given the scale makes the idea that he's my "mirror" nonsense. Buddy, you aren't even the person who caused this mess; a blue space bird with clinical depression is higher on my to-do list.

accept with zenos he actrually kicks our ass multiple times like its nothing and thats what i enjoyed and love about him and why I want him back a shit load he actrually was smart and could kick our ass with zenos I always say step on me daddy, kick me daddy etc

[Skyborne]

And not a single one of the Scions particularly cares about the Ancients. None of them have anything to say - and why would they? - about Venat's choice beyond the functionality of it, or Emet-Selch's plight, or Hermes and Meteion, who are absolutely nobody to them. All of that connection is laid solely on the player and their silent protagonist, and it leads to that weird, alienating feeling where the Scions start feeling like they're all blobbing together into a group that speaks with one generically supportive, often trope-driven voice. They just have no link to the actual plot and no interest in it, either. Shadowbringers was really good at pointing the Scions in different directions to link them, in specific and individual ways, to people on the First so there was a sense they truly cared about its fate, and were invested in the wellbeing of the people there, so this was a bit of a stark contrast in that regard.

Somehow, that never actually really occurred to me (goes to show how much I think about the scions). But yes... only Y'shtola seemed to have some interest in the Ancients and their plight, and mentioned wanting to write a book all about it. For being nerds from the same scholarly city, however... the rest don't seem to particularly be that 'whoa' about the truth and origin of their world?

[PawPaw]

Somehow, that never actually really occurred to me (goes to show how much I think about the scions). But yes... only Y'shtola seemed to have some interest in the Ancients and their plight, and mentioned wanting to write a book all about it. For being nerds from the same scholarly city, however... the rest don't seem to particularly be that 'whoa' about the truth and origin of their world?

I've thought about this way too much, honestly. I think the only time I've seen emotion from the Scions in regards to the origins of everything is when we find out about the true nature of Zodiark and Hydaelyn and they look quite shocked. And while their disinterest in anything besides what they're dealing with at that moment is aggravating, what frustrates me most of all is how uninterested our own character is in learning more about themselves or even, at the most basic of levels, learning more about how to use their own powers. Zenos calls us out on it and all I could do was laugh and agree with him. So annoying that 10 years in and we've only just learned how to control Echo memory dives and who knows if we truly have. We'll have to wait and see whether we continue with the migraines in the future.

My issue with returning to an adventurer isn't about 'how do you top fighting a cosmic threat' it's 'how do I move past the best characters and lore in the game to return to the Scions and Eorzea', bleh.

Agreed. This is exactly where I am right now. Everything and everyone that I cared about the most is dead and/or abandoned and I am struggling to be excited about Further Adventures in Eorzea.

[CrownySuccubus]

I've thought about this way too much, honestly. I think the only time I've seen emotion from the Scions in regards to the origins of everything is when we find out about the true nature of Zodiark and Hydaelyn and they look quite shocked. And while their disinterest in anything besides what they're dealing with at that moment is aggravating, what frustrates me most of all is how uninterested our own character is in learning more about themselves or even, at the most basic of levels, learning more about how to use their own powers. Zenos calls us out on it and all I could do was laugh and agree with him. So annoying that 10 years in and we've only just learned how to control Echo memory dives and who knows if we truly have. We'll have to wait and see whether we continue with the migraines in the future.

Our character can seldom be anything but the "muscle" of the story. The Scions are the ones with the scholarly backgrounds and education about the minutiae of things around the world. They're the ones who can get us transport to Thavnair, they're the ones who can create the soul crystal to control Allegan tech, they're the ones who learn life lessons to "defeat" despair. The WOL is, and forever will remain, a blank slate, because they need us to self-insert into them.

The sole, and exceedingly rare, glimpses of an exception are when you are a multi-class character and someone says something that dips into one of your classes, and you get a new dialogue option to speak up on it. However, by their very nature, these options don't apply anything more than extra flavor, because what if you DIDN'T level up some other class or do an optional quest? Really, I think one option they should try is letting players skip certain quest objectives if they have such an expertise (for example, maybe we don't need to go around checking a bunch of books if we've already got a Scholar leveled), but...again, that risks cutting into the bare minimum padding the devs think the game needs to stop people from accomplishing too much in one day.

[Fiel_Tana]

The WOL is, and forever will remain, a blank slate, because they need us to self-insert into them.

Pardon me while I sidle up to Brinne, grab her stick to proceed beating that horse...

They are portrayed as a blank slate except when they're not and our WoL's reaction to events is forced onto us. For example not being able to even question Hydaelyn's motives or reply with anger or even snark or any opinion other than the approved "loving acceptance" reaction. Then they are not at all a blank slate.

[Theodric]

I just find the Scions in their entirety to be exceedingly dull these days. I liked Estinien and Thancred more than the others but even they seem to be given a lobotomy in situations where they should actually step up and go against what the others are prepared to just lap up. I kept waiting for Thancred to react to Venat writing off Ryne and Gaia as necessary losses or point out just how cruel the deliberate destruction of the Ancients happened to be.

The rest of the Scions simply come across as smug, overeducated university students to me. Given the makeup of this game's community, though, I suppose that explains why they're so popular. Never mind Zenos - the Scions are an excellent mirror to a vocal portion of FFXIV players!