What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Erendis]

They did such an amazingly terrible job at driving home how "inhuman" the Ancients were between the MSQ and the side quests that I have to wonder if they even consulted each other while they were writing. One path is telling me that these people are so flawed they aren't worthy to continue living and the other has people lovingly worrying over me because of my thin aether and asking for and accepting my opinion on how best to honor the departed animals in their charge.

I have not done side quests, but even in msq I did not get a feeling that Ancients were "inhuman". They were more human than some humans... Elpis flower just showed that most of them were content with their lives.

It also was quite unbelievable that Ancients would end up like the Plenty.

I was also taken by emotions while doing msq, but now I get more and more disappointed in how they solved sundering...

[PawPaw]

I have not done side quests, but even in msq I did not get a feeling that Ancients were "inhuman". They were more human than some humans... Elpis flower just showed that most of them were content with their lives.

I think I worded this lazily, hmmm, I'll try again.

Agreed that many of the people of Elpis felt more human to me than the people of Eorzea. I was sure I wasn't going to meet any Lominsan sex slavers there, that's for certain. I think that the writers tried to make the Ancients seem much more flawed than they were through the MSQ. By implying that no one was willing to let Hermes be sad or even that having to put down arcane entities was somehow inhumane, thus attempting to show that they had no empathy. And a lot of people bought into it. I see these being parroted as prime examples of why their society was doomed to failure all the time. Because using a butterfly to make a robe is heinous even though almost everyone has worn leather and animal products at some point in their lives (and arcane entities are just aether), and destroying rabid arcane entities is "having no respect for any life other than human". They were content as a people, yes, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The Elpis flowers always being white is not a bad thing, but somehow the MSQ tries to make you feel as though this is an aberration. It subtly pushes the idea that everyone not being sad or in a state of constant emotional flux is unnatural. That the Elpis flower not changing colors 150 times a day means that no one has feelings except for Hermes, that they were just robots.

Meanwhile, in doing the side quests you find that there were other people who felt complex feelings (even sadness!) for their creations and no doubt would have shared all of this with Hermes had Hermes actually tried stepping out of his own head and talking to the people around him once in a while. The side quests also show you that the Ancients, while structured, were also open to new ideas and to implementing changes when they saw the merit in a new idea. No one was stopping anyone from having negative feelings, they just didn't seem to have a system in place the way we would for expressing and working through those feelings when they did have them. But there also isn't any reason to believe that they wouldn't have been open to exploring new ways of helping with that either.

This is more what I mean when I say there is a disconnect. the funeral quest alone made me tear up because I was happy to have been able to share something new with them and see how excited they were to use it in the future, only to remember that these people would be killed soon, there was no future. While the MSQ wants me to believe that because Elpis is "paradise" that it must have a seedy, putrid underbelly and all of the Ancients' society is headed for self-destruction because they are too content and unwilling/unable to change.

[SpectrePhantasia]

I feel like in the progression from Shadowbringers to Endwalker the writers tried to change the Ancients to fit this mold for their themes that just doesn't work because that's never really what they were. The Ancients weren't Eulmore, they were never shown to be these complacent bliss-chasing fools who knew no difficulty in their lives. They never appeared to lack empathy or be selfish, rather their selflessness was their defining trait.

Their society was just simply better, and that's where the whole conflict in Shadowbringers stemmed from. That's why Alphinaud was stunned silent a moment when Emet asked him if half the Sundered could ever be so noble and act with the intent to save those they loved, because he knew they wouldn't. The Ancients' worth was never put into question, rather it was whether or not it was worth purging all that was birthed from their tragedy to bring them back. Obviously the answer the Scions provided was no, but I think the narrative successfully conveyed that was THEIR answer, not THE answer. It was that proclaimed 'matter of perspective' that made the conflict so compelling and impactful in the first place. It's what made Emet-selch so sympathetic.

To then completely 180 on that and try to imply that the Ancients were doomed from the start and there was no way they ever could have survived due to this contrived unwillingness to change, well it left a very bad taste in my mouth. "Humanity wins because humanity" is a very tired message and given the scope of the world we have here, it felt pretty self-serving. Some of that nuance I loved so much was sadly diminished.

[TaleraRistain]

Agreed that many of the people of Elpis felt more human to me than the people of Eorzea.

I had the exact opposite impression. What stuck out to me was their obsession with purpose. And how if that purpose was fulfilled, they felt they had nothing more to give and would move on to the aetherial sea. Venat hints at this because others were surprised when she stepped down that she didn't go on to death. But even she was obsessed with purpose. She wasn't sticking around because she had found a new one. She was on the same purpose she had been on.

Contrast this with Eorzeans, someone like Severian. Severian is the alchemist guildmaster and in the ARR storyline he's obsessed with the purpose of bringing his dead love back to life so he can tell her his feelings. You help him do this. Does he go off and die then? No, he remains the alchemist guildmaster and finds something else to devote his time to. And Eozeans do that all the time. Some might work at a purpose their entire lives but many others fulfill a purpose and a find a new one. That felt very human to me. The Ancients not seeking out a new purpose and the implication that was normal in their society and that they looked askance at those who didn't do that was what felt inhuman to me.

[Rulakir]

Something I've said a few times when discussing this in my own spaces is "I don't hate Endwalker, but I absolutely hate what Endwalker brings out in people." I think I've mentioned before that the way EW leans into encouraging and leaving room for people to Other the Ancients really got under my skin, when I would say the main thing I loved and appreciated Shadowbringers for was that it seemed to actually stand in open, fierce defiance of that temptation, shouting from the rooftops to Humanize and Empathize instead.

Every time I read one of your write-ups I'm even more disappointed in EW. :P I really want to know what happened between ShB and EW. I struggle with believing that EW is the direction Ishikawa wanted to go.

What stuck out to me was their obsession with purpose. And how if that purpose was fulfilled, they felt they had nothing more to give and would move on to the aetherial sea.

I know some people retain a fervency for life until the end of their days and I am not one of them. I've dealt with feeling like I have nothing to offer and that there is no purpose to my existence. I'm not even that old comparatively and certainly not in comparison to the lifespans of the Ancients. Needless to say, the Ancient mentality didn't phase me. I thought it was beautiful they could make that decision for themselves and it was celebrated rather than condemned. I've certainly heard more than my fair share of "you're wrong for feeling that way", it was nice to see it depicted as not being some sort of sin in another culture.