What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

There's nothing to 'get' since nobody is obligated to agree with the idea that genocide is acceptable when some very contrived conditions arise to conveniently handwave and justify it. We also know that Venat did have alternative options available to her if she truly wished to save the Ancients. She could have simply informed them of what she knew, especially since she previously claimed that she thought that 'nothing was impossible'.

Perhaps if the story really wanted us to pretend as if no other option existed then it should not have shown every other major threat be dismantled through ever escalating plot conveniences.

Attack on Titan handled the controversial subject of genocide in a much more tactful manner as far as I'm concerned. It's a real shame that FFXIV did not when it came to Venat and her actions.

[Atelier-Bagur]

There's nothing to 'get' since nobody is obligated to agree with the idea that genocide is acceptable when some very contrived conditions arise to conveniently handwave and justify it. We also know that Venat did have alternative options available to her if she truly wished to save the Ancients. She could have simply informed them of what she knew, especially since she previously claimed that she thought that 'nothing was impossible'.

Perhaps if the story really wanted us to pretend as if no other option existed then it should not have shown every other major threat be dismantled through ever escalating plot conveniences.

Attack on Titan handled the controversial subject of genocide in a much more tactful manner as far as I'm concerned. It's a real shame that FFXIV did not when it came to Venat and her actions.

1. Knowing how extremely stubborn the Ancients were, I doubt they would'nt have believed her without concrete proof of the Final Days due to how the Ancients themselves couldnt know the early warning signs because of their lack of sensing dynamis.

2. She did wind up telling people who would support her which is where the opposing group came from whom rejected the Convocation's summoning of Zodiark, since again, their solution of preserving their world wouldnt have ultimately helped them against Meteion.

3. News flash this game runs of so many plot conveniences because of the nature of the jrpg formula. This isnt some Game of Throne level of deep writing which I think you mentioned somewhere was what you were looking for in FFXIV when all this time it clearly isnt written that way, yes this even includes the beloved Shadowbringers and Heavensward stories, those stories worked not because of how they tried to make every single detail of a character's motive click and concise but because FFXIV's story as a whole resonates more in an emotional level. Endwalker is no different.

4. Does this mean the story is immune to criticism? Absolutely not, I had my fair share of complaints with some aspects of every story's expansion but ultimately I just try to enjoy for what is presented to me and I'm satisfied. I know Im sounding like Im denying of you from your own personal takes but thats not what Im trying to do. Just sharing my own thoughts since I feel sometimes people read into things waaaay too much.

[Theodric]

1. Knowing how extremely stubborn the Ancients were, I doubt they would'nt have believed her without concrete proof of the Final Days due to how the Ancients themselves couldnt know the early warning signs because of their lack of sensing dynamis.

2. She did wind up telling people who would support her which is where the opposing group came from whom rejected the Convocation's summoning of Zodiark, since again, their solution of preserving their world wouldnt have ultimately helped them against Meteion.

3. News flash this game runs of so many plot conveniences because of the nature of the jrpg formula. This isnt some Game of Throne level of deep writing which I think you mentioned somewhere was what you were looking for in FFXIV when all this time it clearly isnt written that way, yes this even includes the beloved Shadowbringers and Heavensward stories, those stories worked not because of how they tried to make every single detail of a character's motive click and concise but because FFXIV's story as a whole resonates more in an emotional level. Endwalker is no different.

4. Does this mean the story is immune to criticism? Absolutely not, I had my fair share of complaints with some aspects of every story's expansion but ultimately I just try to enjoy for what is presented to me and I'm satisfied. I know Im sounding like Im denying of you from your own personal takes but thats not what Im trying to do. Just sharing my own thoughts since I feel sometimes people read into things waaaay too much.

1 - The Ancients weren't shown to be unwilling to listen to reason when it came to working to the benefit of Etheirys. Even when Emet-Selch was sceptical of the story told to him by the player character, he vowed to take it seriously since it was his sworn duty as a member of the Convocation. A key point to remember is that Venat wrote off the Ancients based on information she had available that would have helped them. Nor was it ever a guarantee that they were fated to destroy themselves - it was very much framed as her opinion, rather than an inevitable conclusion.

2 - We have no confirmation as to how much she told her supporters, especially when much of her actions involved feigning Zodiark as being the reason for her actions. Keeping Zodiark's power in check was not her actual goal, nor was the third round of sacrifices the reason for doing what she did. A point she herself raises during the conversation in Elpis when speaking about the act.

3 - I've always found such arguments to be disingenuous, personally. The game frequently markets the story as its main selling point and actively encourages speculation, so expecting consistency doesn't strike me as an unreasonable demand. I also do not think that it is unfair to point out that the game had a very different atmosphere back in the days of ARR and HW. An atmosphere many of us came to enjoy and wish to see more of. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I want Game of Thrones level of writing or grit, either. I've only ever pushed for the main characters to not be clad in plot armour at every possible turn.

4 - I noted that you made this comment in another thread related to the story:

inb4 people come in to ruin this thread with "Endwalker sucked, Shadowbringers was still better".

I personally also appreciate and enjoyed what this expansion brought and couldnt get enough of the beautiful leitmotif Soken composed for it. Here's to further adventures in Eorzea.

Just as I wouldn't expect people to deliberately go into a thread praising the story and claiming that it's terrible, I think that deliberately going into a thread where people are raising concerns is very much a faux pas. Obviously I can't stop you, though I will say that I don't see much point in endless circular arguments about an issue that is very much a matter of subjective personal tastes.

I'm not misunderstanding the story. I simply don't agree with Venat's reasoning and I recognise that there were alternative routes that she could have taken as outlined above. She chose to inflict genocide upon her own people after deciding to write them off in favour of fawning over the Sundered instead.

I'm not going to suddenly change my mind and proclaim that genocide is perfectly acceptable so long as it is done a certain way and at this point, after a fair bit of me stating that it's fine to agree to disagree I find it pretty strange to see attempts to change what is obviously a strongly held belief. Over a fictional event, no less.

At this point, I'm pretty much just awaiting the upcoming Live Letter so we can get an indication of the upcoming story. I'm pretty excited to have my character become an adventurer again and I look forward to fighting more 'humble' threats for a while.

[Lauront]

1 - The Ancients weren't shown to be unwilling to listen to reason when it came to working to the benefit of Etheirys. Even when Emet-Selch was sceptical of the story told to him by the player character, he vowed to take it seriously since it was his sworn duty as a member of the Convocation. A key point to remember is that Venat wrote off the Ancients based on information she had available that would have helped them. Nor was it ever a guarantee that they were fated to destroy themselves - it was very much framed as her opinion, rather than an inevitable conclusion.

On point 1. this is in fact shown throughout the Elpis sidequests, where many of the ancients will willingly adapt new practices or insights where they think they make sense. She and Hermes may have harboured certain beliefs about their people, but the sidequests paint a more complex picture. Even the whole debate over the sacrifices of the "new life" was premised over the securing the best future for the star (which she herself concedes in 5.2 in Anamnesis Anyder.) So concrete evidence that their way of life could ultimately end in their doom might've swayed matters. Even the Scions (Y'shtola in particular) were sceptical about a situation like the Plenty ending in doom, until they saw it, so I think it's unrealistic to expect ancients who had seen so many ills wiped out over time through their efforts to just be convinced through mere words. Had they been given a full account and the chance to investigate further? Might've had another outcome.

I said it weeks ago in some long buried argument in Lore, but I view Venat as an, "Anti-Villain." Much in the same vein as Ozymandias from Watchmen.

The grandest desire to do good, while also validating her own morals and perceived superiority.

I mean, think about it. She lived her life flying in the face of Amaurotine society, to a degree, taking what she thought was good and denying what was bad. She already believed herself above her society.

Her act can be described as cruel, and to quote one of the best lessons ever shown in gaming:

"Cruelty leads to suffering. And when one suffers, it is the way of life to spread suffering. The suffering within builds, until its sound is all one hears. And so when a kindness is offered, it is punished. And a greater darkness is served."

KOTOR2's Beggar Problem

Look at Venat's actions, and then imagine that it wasn't a story where the conclusion of victory was predetermined. Imagine if we'd faced Meteion and lost. What would we think of Venat's actions then?

I thought this poster has a pretty interesting take on what truly motivated her, or at least swayed her, and in my view it is as you have worded it - through providing validation to her own deeply held beliefs. That scene where she discusses the future with you on the skybridge is where I got the impression that she may have been swayed to commit to preserving the timelines later on, and I think this only enhanced the dissatisfaction she had with her people's responses in the face of her words (their reactions were quite understandable given the circumstances and what they had actually been told.) I suspect though is that she was not prepared for what she'd end up seeing play out in practice, and that's why she becomes conflicted and apologetic over it, even if it gets the job done in the end. Anyway, I agree with your question about flipping the outcome (and you can do the same for the Rejoinings, beyond being instrumental parts of her plan, i.e. premise that their completion would've been necessary to drive back Meteion - would people then be comfortable with them?) Whatever the outcome, I think she at least acknowledges the harshness in it.

That's...not really what I was getting at at all.

I simply reasoned that a race that was largely devoid of strife and conflict was more likely to have brought calamity to itself through something like a search for knowledge/answers and/or tampering with forces they didn't have a complete understanding of; both of which were fulfilled with Hermes' creating the Meteia to seek out the peoples of other stars.

On the other hand, something like Jenova, Lavos or the Creator would also have fit equally well. The star is rich in aether and souls after all. I had thought they'd have an internal collaborator though, a subversive type like Hermes. In essence, Meteion was corrupted by what she saw in the alien civilisations, but meh, still not what I hoped for.

[AnotherPerson]

There's nothing to 'get' since nobody is obligated to agree with the idea that genocide is acceptable when some very contrived conditions arise to conveniently handwave and justify it. We also know that Venat did have alternative options available to her if she truly wished to save the Ancients. She could have simply informed them of what she knew, especially since she previously claimed that she thought that 'nothing was impossible'.

Perhaps if the story really wanted us to pretend as if no other option existed then it should not have shown every other major threat be dismantled through ever escalating plot conveniences.

Attack on Titan handled the controversial subject of genocide in a much more tactful manner as far as I'm concerned. It's a real shame that FFXIV did not when it came to Venat and her actions.

Except Hermes would have to be brought into the fold if all the Convocation were to know - which would work against her because now Hermes could turn against them and they would not have someone who can replace him in the Convocation who also excels in research of outer space & aetherology for future problems (and his expertise was what led them to discover the stagnation of the aether currents & figure out the strategy to forestall the Final Days in the first place). If they let him know before Meteion unleashed the Final Days, he would've turned against them because Venat was supposed to have lost her memories when during their journey in Ktisis Hyperboreia. That would be a worse outcome because now they can't forestall The Final Days at all and the Final Days would've just ended the Ancients then and there after affecting their ability to manipulate aether and creating more blasphemies.

So they had to overcome the Final Days without Venat's direct intervention first for Hermes to accept and judge mankind to be able to pass Meteion's judgement... Except that never happened because the ancients failed and resorted to summoning Zodiark to return to their paradise and wouldn't listen otherwise when Venat tried to get them to accept that immutable truth that suffering exists and their world isn't perfect; even if they go back, pain and despair will still remain (the events of the Endwalker raids prove this to be true too).

This was why the events that led up to our time was pre-destined to happen and Argos ended up being friendly to us. Venat couldn't do anything by the circumstances involving Hermes' resolve and judgement without clueing him in that she remembers and will make the judgement unfair. She could only try to persuade the people. Her attempt was basically always going to fail in our timeline since he was integral to both causing and stopping The Final Days.

[Rulakir]

Except Hermes would have to be brought into the fold if all the Convocation were to know - which would work against her because now Hermes could turn against them and they would not have someone who can replace him in the Convocation who also excels in research of outer space & aetherology for future problems (and his expertise was what led them to discover the stagnation of the aether currents & figure out the strategy to forestall the Final Days in the first place).

The previous Fandaniel hadn't stepped down yet and I doubt he'd return to the star knowing there was an impending global crisis on the horizon. Hermes also wasn't the only scholar in his field. The game didn't provide sufficient proof that he was at all integral to the creation of Zodiark. Elidibus only credits him with discovering the stagnation, which Venat could have told them to look for instead.

As a result, we don't know if Zodiark was needed because they didn't know or have the opportunity to prepare. They could have come up with an alternate solution and, even if not, Zodiark could've been created before the Final Days had decimated the world to the point where the only aether to use for him was from Amaurotine sacrifices.

Also, the Final Days wasn't a test, it was a condemnation. No one was ever going to or arguably even meant to pass that test. Had the Final Days 2.0 been given more time to ravage the sundered world I'd guarantee you it would've ended up similarly to the original with the remaining inhabitants willing to do whatever it took to make it stop and return to normal. People act as if Meteion was ever going to be swayed by the people of Etheirys changing. It'd been 12k years and they were still turning into blasphemies. Sundering and millennia of suffering and despair had done jack to save Etheirys. It was always going to come down to the WoL, groomed and given every advantage possible, to defeat Meteion or flee the star.

[Brinne]

It was always going to come down to the WoL, groomed and given every advantage possible, to defeat Meteion or flee the star.

Hey now, don't forget Zenos!

[AnotherPerson]

The previous Fandaniel hadn't stepped down yet and I doubt he'd return to the star knowing there was an impending global crisis on the horizon. Hermes also wasn't the only scholar in his field. The game didn't provide sufficient proof that he was at all integral to the creation of Zodiark. Elidibus only credits him with discovering the stagnation, which Venat could have told them to look for instead.

As a result, we don't know if Zodiark was needed because they didn't know or have the opportunity to prepare. They could have come up with an alternate solution and, even if not, Zodiark could've been created before the Final Days had decimated the world to the point where the only aether to use for him was from Amaurotine sacrifices.

Also, the Final Days wasn't a test, it was a condemnation. No one was ever going to or arguably even meant to pass that test. Had the Final Days 2.0 been given more time to ravage the sundered world I'd guarantee you it would've ended up similarly to the original with the remaining inhabitants willing to do whatever it took to make it stop and return to normal. People act as if Meteion was ever going to be swayed by the people of Etheirys changing. It'd been 12k years and they were still turning into blasphemies. Sundering and millennia of suffering and despair had done jack to save Etheirys. It was always going to come down to the WoL, groomed and given every advantage possible, to defeat Meteion or flee the star.

Well.. that's the problem. In the quest "The Greatest Contribution" Emet states that in the Fourteen, there's no one who specializes in the Celestial. That means the previous Fandaniel has no knowledge or skill in aetherology or dynamis like Hermes does. In that regard, the previous Fandaniel would not have been able to forestall the Final Days as they couldn't pinpoint what was causing it. Only Hermes was able to deduce the effects was a result of stagnant aether currents by viewing the aether currents based on his research in the study of aetherology.

So no, the previous Fandaniel wouldn't be able to do anything that the current Fandaniel could have in relation to figuring out how to Forestall the Final Days.

It's easy to say Venat can come with an alternate solution - but the alternate solution is to really go and stop Meteion - who already flew outside of Etheriys and the ancients had no way of actually approaching her due to the lack of technological advancement as the Ancient's sole focus & concepts was always been developing life on the star, not travel to distant stars, and definitely not to the corner of the Universe.

You are right to say it is a condemnation - but that's because the means to pass the test was beyond the Ancients due to being too stubborn to change their ways and accept that their world wasn't perfect, which was why they failed. Meteion has already seen civilizations similar to theirs heading towards the same route, which would render their 'life' meaningless. Accepting their flaws is the first step to creating a new answer for Meteion, which can lead to a new solution. However, the precursor requires the ancients to not go down the path that other dead civilizations have tried - trying to achieve perfection & bliss of the star.

A calamity like this happened to the Eorzea in the present, but rather than be condemned, we looked at it as a way to prove to Meteion that our right to exist is just as valid during our time. For us, we took on all the failures of other stars and still overcame her despair. This is the difference in outlook to the question "What gives meaning to life?"

And in the end, Meteion did get swayed by the people of Etheriys changing. It was pretty much the plot point of the Endwalkers cutscene when the WoL shares their experience to her.. she learned death and suffering will come to everyone and no one can live a life free from sorrow, but it's how we make the most of our lives during our time, which is what gives the meaning to life. Thus, did she decide to sing a final song to give birth to new life instead of singing the song of oblivion.

[Sicno]

Well.. that's the problem. In the quest "The Greatest Contribution" Emet states that in the Fourteen, there's no one who specializes in the Celestial. That means the previous Fandaniel has no knowledge or skill in aetherology or dynamis like Hermes does. In that regard, the previous Fandaniel would not have been able to forestall the Final Days as they couldn't pinpoint what was causing it. Only Hermes was able to deduce the effects was a result of stagnant aether currents by viewing the aether currents based on his research in the study of aetherology.

So no, the previous Fandaniel wouldn't be able to do anything that the current Fandaniel could have in relation to figuring out how to Forestall the Final Days.

This is only if you go the route of patching up the celestial currents. We've discussed this here before, but among the things we know about calvinball dynamis is that it can't affect aether of a certain density, that's why Meteion couldn't affect the ancients themselves, only their creations and other less dense lifeforms. The correlation with the stagnation of the celestial currents was the only thing they could find in the dark that worked, without knowing the actual cause of the problem.

At the beginning of our visit Hermes commented in the presence of Emet and Hythlodaeus that aether trumps dynamis, that knowledge is already a good starting point in finding solutions if the ancients were even half the scholars and researchers they were depicted as.

It's easy to say Venat can come with an alternate solution

It's not that she needed to find a solution HERSELF, and completely by herself. What we could have expected from her was simply to warn their kind about the situation so that then they could put their collective minds together to work on a solution.

"Oh but they wouldn't have believed her" - Well she has the echo to show things to people. Also remember she gave us a crystal with the tracing data on Meteion? She could have shown that to others. Also Emet already gave enough merit once to our ludicrous story to deem it worth of investigation because it could concern the safety of the star.

"Oh but Hermes would have opposed her" - And? We have no idea how they handled things like crime, but if the events of Elpis would have been made public I don't see why they wouldn't have forced him to cooperate and share his knowledge, considering their survival was now uncertain.

You are right to say it is a condemnation - but that's because the means to pass the test was beyond the Ancients due to being too stubborn to change their ways and accept that their world wasn't perfect, which was why they failed.


A calamity like this happened to the Eorzea in the present, but rather than be condemned, we looked at it as a way to prove to Meteion that our right to exist is just as valid during our time. For us, we took on all the failures of other stars and still overcame her despair. This is the difference in outlook to the question "What gives meaning to life?"

The "test" didn't even matter. The sundered didn't behave better than the ancients. Just look around everywhere in the world, all the atrocities perpetrated, the lack of regard for others' lives, all the wars, the genocide, the subjugation, etc. (all things our dearest "Mother" allowed to happen btw) and in the end the real reason we were able to reach Meteion and defeat her was because we just happened to have the one time traveler who was there when things went to hell and who deigned to share their findings. Only THEN someone could do something about it. Wow, an incredible "test", 10000% the sundered are better than the ancients.