What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Seiori]

It seems like writers were not sharing notes with one another makes a lot of stuff sound contradictory, like Venat the reason I don't make a comment about this character is because I think they are a mess of characterization. Wasn't the reason for the delay to mostly touch up on the story? I think needed more time if that was it. They really should not bunch a lot of key story arcs together along with time travel that is just trouble. Still see this expansion as rushed and my opinion is they just wanted to move on new things. Hopefully they can learn from the criticism and mistakes to make a more structured story going forward, now that they have a clean slate.

[NanaWiloh]

It seems like writers were not sharing notes with one another makes a lot of stuff sound contradictory, like Venat the reason I don't make a comment about this character is because I think they are a mess of characterization. Wasn't the reason for the delay to mostly touch up on the story? I think needed more time if that was it. They really should not bunch a lot of key story arcs together along with time travel that is just trouble. Still see this expansion as rushed and my opinion is they just wanted to move on new things. Hopefully they can learn from the criticism and mistakes to make a more structured story going forward, now that they have a clean slate.

Seems to me that all recollections and telling of events that the WOL did not experience themselves are mere points of view. So unless to two or more characters agree on the recollection or telling of a event, then it stands that said recollection or memory is their point of view. Such a thing can make things sound contradictory look at Starwars and Obi-won's telling of Ankin and Vader in new hope. Threw Luke off about his father and Vader until Obi explained the truth and revealed his first telling was his point of view. KizuyaKatogami said the devs wanted people to debate who was right and who was wrong with Ancients and sundered, Good way to insight that point of views. Both sides were right and wrong in the end, one thing I don't see pointed out is. The Ancients were unified prior to the Final days and splintered during it. The sundered were already splintered but unified before it and stayed unified through it.

Reading this debate made me forget that both sides were striving for survival, which is why I enjoyed the story cause neither were the bad guys in the end. Despair itself was the real bad guy in the story.

[EaraGrace]

Except this isn’t true, as has been stated again and again. They did know suffering. They knew of pain and sorrow. Do the Elpis side quests lol. Also lol, using her recollection of events as evidence when in the expansion prior we know such memories are easily malleable and changed. Just look at Cid with Bozja.

The Elpis side quests and the dialogue show that they didn’t know how to handle suffering. I see you forgot the dialogue on the moon again.

It seems like writers were not sharing notes with one another makes a lot of stuff sound contradictory, like Venat the reason I don't make a comment about this character is because I think they are a mess of characterization. Wasn't the reason for the delay to mostly touch up on the story? I think needed more time if that was it. They really should not bunch a lot of key story arcs together along with time travel that is just trouble. Still see this expansion as rushed and my opinion is they just wanted to move on new things. Hopefully they can learn from the criticism and mistakes to make a more structured story going forward, now that they have a clean slate.

No it was bug testing that was the reason, no evidence it was for story as they needed more time.

Any insinuations that they'd never stop using him in such a way are, ultimately, little more than headcanon.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The Elpis side quests and the dialogue show that they didn’t know how to handle suffering. I see you forgot the dialogue on the moon again.



No it was bug testing that was the reason, no evidence it was for story as they needed more time.

Better get those glasses checked then, because i know the moon dialogue. It doesn’t change the fact that we see firsthand the struggles some of the researchers faced, some of them having feelings like Hermes until they resolve their vows and understand what they’re doing is good. The main point is though it directly contradicts her whole point of them not knowing suffering. Again, she’s a mentally ill psychopath. Nothing more nothing less.

As for the “bug testing” i don’t think we should take everything the devs say as factual. They’ve been caught lying many a time. Considering they even had missing lines in the game that were featured in trailers, they clearly did some last minute changes both in shb and EW.

[Lauront]

Do you want a medal for taking a screenshot unrelated to what I said, ergo failing to make that point (=intention for continual sacrifices after the third stage), and posting it?

[Theodric]

Do you want a medal for taking a screenshot unrelated to what I said, ergo failing to make that point (=intention for continual sacrifices after the third stage), and posting it?

To say nothing of the simple fact that the NPC being quoted was shown to be heavily biased and dismissed any questioning of Hydaelyn's incredibly shady and psychotic motives. I've never been fond of gaslighting being excused, least of all when it involves the horrific genocide of an entire species.

[EaraGrace]

Better get those glasses checked then, because i know the moon dialogue. It doesn’t change the fact that we see firsthand the struggles some of the researchers faced, some of them having feelings like Hermes until they resolve their vows and understand what they’re doing is good. The main point is though it directly contradicts her whole point of them not knowing suffering. Again, she’s a mentally ill psychopath. Nothing more nothing less.

As Emet himself said

As for the “bug testing” i don’t think we should take everything the devs say as factual. They’ve been caught lying many a time. Considering they even had missing lines in the game that were featured in trailers, they clearly did some last minute changes both in shb and EW.

I’m not aware of any “missing” dialogue from either the launch trailer or the trailers released near the delay. Assuming anyone who says something that runs counter to your narrative is lying seems a pretty bad way to arrive at truth.

Do you want a medal for taking a screenshot unrelated to what I said, ergo failing to make that point (=intention for continual sacrifices after the third stage), and posting it?

I was specifically responding to your assertion that it’s only headcanon they’d continue giving sacrifices. The text suggests others were working off that presumption as well.

To say nothing of the simple fact that the NPC being quoted was shown to be heavily biased and dismissed any questioning of Hydaelyn's incredibly shady and psychotic motives. I've never been fond of gaslighting being excused, least of all when it involves the horrific genocide of an entire species.

Wasn’t even a member of Venats faction but go off.

[Theodric]

Wasn’t even a member of Venats faction but go off.

...?

The Watcher was created as a construct by Venat and when probed for insight into Venat's motives becomes evasive and basically handwaves the decision Venat made to lie and gaslight about her own people and the terrible atrocities that she allowed to happen to them by staying silent on the matter of the Final Days combined with inflicting genocide upon the Ancients as a direct consequence of the Sundering.

[Kozh]

Just gonna chime in to say this is not at all how people operate. Many people go into fields like biology or medicine, studies that inevitably expose them to seeing the suffering of people and animals, out of a love for those selfsame beings. It’s a simple fact that those with a deep emotional connection to natural life will inevitably incorporate that into their day to day. Some with professions, others with volunteer work or hobbies. Hermes was clearly the former.

What you said here isn't contradictory to my point. I'm not saying that people can't go into biology fields if they love human or animals. I was talking more about how Elpis, as probably one of the most important research facility, didn't even realize how ill-equipped Hermes mentality is. Nothing wrong with him being a researcher there, but to become chief overseer? Do they not, idk, interview or test him? This guy is a loner, never open himself to other, and always oppose to put down creatures. More than that, that one person who watched him launch meteia into the sky didn't even report him for violating the rule, which is really baffling. Remember that this is a society so strict with rule they have procedure for everything.

I was specifically responding to your assertion that it’s only headcanon they’d continue giving sacrifices. The text suggests others were working off that presumption as well.

Wasn’t even a member of Venats faction but go off.

That screenshot you post is talking about either the third sacrifice, or about the sacrifice the Ascian going to do in order to bring back their brethren. Hence why they need to rejoined the shards first to free Zodiark, then do the fourth sacrifice (the sundered lives).

As for the Watchers, isn't is pretty much hinted that he's one of Venat followers? Specifically the one who lament her being gone after summoning Hydaelyn? I mean, Mare Lamentorum and Lopporits were made by Hydaelyn to watch over Zodiark and prepare for the Source escape plan, respectively. Why would Hydaelyn made a shade of an unrelated random person to watch over Zodiark? And even if she did, technically we still can say that the Watcher may be bias in his perception of Venat, just like how Hythlo shade in fake Amaurot is hinted to act that way because Emet wants him to be like that (to assist us by giving those convocation crystal).

[EaraGrace]

...?

The Watcher was created as a construct by Venat and when probed for insight into Venat's motives becomes evasive and basically handwaves the decision Venat made to lie and gaslight about her own people and the terrible atrocities that she allowed to happen to them by staying silent on the matter of the Final Days combined with inflicting genocide upon the Ancients as a direct consequence of the Sundering.

Evasive or trying to make sense of things with what they knew? Hydaelyn imbued them them with the memories of an old acquaintance and the job of maintaining the brands, but beyond that he’s given little direct guidance by her. There’s nothing to substantiate the claim he “was made to lie.” Show me evidence of that if you’re going to claim that as truth.

What you said here isn't contradictory to my point. I'm not saying that people can't go into biology fields if they love human or animals. I was talking more about how Elpis, as probably one of the most important research facility, didn't even realize how ill-equipped Hermes mentality is. Nothing wrong with him being a researcher there, but to become chief overseer? Do they not, idk, interview or test him? This guy is a loner, never open himself to other, and always oppose to put down creatures. More than that, that one person who watched him launch meteia into the sky didn't even report him for violating the rule, which is really baffling. Remember that this is a society so strict with rule they have procedure for everything.

Considering the other researchers we speak to offer glowing praise, he was so good that many he was seen as capable of of representing humanity, and that he was specifically chosen by the facilities previous chief, I’d say there’s a lot in his favor. And yeah, Meteion should’ve been registered and he should’ve discussed with others his plan, no argument from me.

That screenshot you post is talking about either the third sacrifice, or about the sacrifice the Ascian going to do in order to bring back their brethren. Hence why they need to rejoined the shards first to free Zodiark, then do the fourth sacrifice (the sundered lives).

Then you agree then that sacrifices would continue if they thought it would solve an issue their facing? Whether that be regaining those lost souls, rejoining humanity, or some other issue, sacrificing life to Zodiark in order to have Him address it is an option that’s can be used yes? I ask just to see if we agree on that in particular.

As for the Watchers, isn't is pretty much hinted that he's one of Venat followers? Specifically the one who lament her being gone after summoning Hydaelyn? I mean, Mare Lamentorum and Lopporits were made by Hydaelyn to watch over Zodiark and prepare for the Source escape plan, respectively. Why would Hydaelyn made a shade of an unrelated random person to watch over Zodiark? And even if she did, technically we still can say that the Watcher may be bias in his perception of Venat, just like how Hythlo shade in fake Amaurot is hinted to act that way because Emet wants him to be like that (to assist us by giving those convocation crystal).

Not especially, as he never shows signs of knowing the specifics of Meteion, only recognizing that the Final Days would continue with Zodiarks destruction. The Watcher repeatedly states he’s not their to judge or hold positions on the issue, just to do what he was created to as an arcane creation. Beyond that, everything else can attributed to the memories he was imbued with.

He also refers to those who summoned Hydaelyn as they or them, while referring to the efforts to halt the Final Days and Amaurot as a whole with we and us. Best on display here:



The “they” referring to those who summoned Hydaelyn here.

Now of course I still won’t say it’s absolutely impossible he was still a member, but given what we have it points to him being an old friend and someone who thought well of Venat, but not a member of their faction. Which makes sense. Just because someone is an acquaintance doesn’t mean he’s necessarily going to be the best choice for a secret group trying to avert the apocalypse. Why she ultimately chose him to guard the moon is mystery however, and might have more to do with what he was an expert in.