What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[EaraGrace]

I think I know the part you're referring to. Meteion says:

"Like me, they feel his pain and turn dark...
That's only for Hermes, though. For others, they're always white and bright."

I honestly don't take that too literally because I find it entirely unlikely that the only emotion ever manifested in the history of the ancients is Hermes's sorrow. It could just be poor phrasing or interpretation during localization. The intention here could have been that even when they change color they remain a bright hue, like blue or green, and that they only go dark for Hermes. In an earlier quest he says:

"Though be it here or elsewhere, they are seldom seen in any hue save purest white..."
"(...) While it has no will of its own, it is sensitive to the prevailing emotion in the vicinity, and reacts by altering its color and vibrancy."

He doesn't say "it reacts to sorrow". He speaks about prevailing emotions, which also checks with what we saw earlier through he MSQ, that it changes to other colors because of different emotions, not just sorrow. So it must have reacted to other emotions too for the ancients. I know this contradicts what I said earlier about literal interpretations after localization, but if they would indeed have only ever reacted to him we could expect a more binary representation. Black or white. Joy or sorrow. Not hint at a spectrum of colors nor to emotions in general.

The issue is that we’re given examples of the Elpis flowers reaction to emotions which show it changing colors dramatically and in a very visible way. And given the fact that the flower existed in Elpis for at least several centuries by that point, based on the convo with Timaios, the fact that none have observed a shift leads me to believe that there’s either two options. Either the Ancients just don’t have emotional moods, which would be ridiculous I agree, or those shifts are being prevented from affecting change in the flower. The latter seems like a better fit, though exactly why Hermes gets through that remains unknown to me. Maybe the depth of emotion? Grief is a powerful one, and the Ancients didn’t exactly seem well versed on how it felt.

The flowers are just an example. They say dynamis is a form of energy, so it follows that it could be used or manipulated in different ways. The flowers just illustrate that having a will is not a requirement to make use of it and all kinds of creative solutions could have arisen. Also, Meteion was a (quite literally) PET PROJECT of Hermes, and he was so careless at it that he even gave her a task that had a possibility of not being fulfilled, something Emet-Selch pointed out mere moments after hearing about it. Imagine what a full team devoted to design something better with the added motivation of preserving their own existances could have achieved.

Problem is dynamis is partly defined by the difficulty you have in interacting with it. As stated before, while we don’t have objective statements on the matter, dynamis has shown to be manipulated only by those with the will and emotions to do so while also being aetherically weak enough to not crowd it out. While I’m sure an experienced group could make entelechies not as susceptible to environmental emotions as Meteion, they’d still need free will and to have a reason to overcome Meteions song. The Scions fought for the those back home and for their friends, would a creation not given a choice in the matter do so?

I’m not gonna say it’s impossible but I just think unlikely given what we’ve been told.

[sharknado]

Either the Ancients just don’t have emotional moods, which would be ridiculous I agree, or those shifts are being prevented from affecting change in the flower.

Their society looks overly formal/strict. They wear masks, identical robes and rarely use personal identity. They know emotions really well but IMHO to break their way of strict life it has to be really strong (Emet recreation, the whole existence of Ascians, praying to Lord Zodiark).

[TaleraRistain]

Their society looks overly formal/strict. They wear masks, identical robes and rarely use personal identity. They know emotions really well but IMHO to break their way of strict life it has to be really strong (Emet recreation, the whole existence of Ascians, praying to Lord Zodiark).

Yeah that was something I noticed as well. In the short story about Azem and the grapes, it's mentioned Azem has been censured more than once by the Convocation and Emet calls Azem a "divisive figure".

But all we know about Azem's activities is that Azem goes out and helps people and actually experiences the world. Emet never gave the impression that Azem goes out and does bad things. I definitely got the impression that Azem is this controversial not because they were someone who would raise eyebrows on the Source, but because they stuck out like a sore thumb in a much more repressed society.

[Sicno]

The issue is that we’re given examples of the Elpis flowers reaction to emotions which show it changing colors dramatically and in a very visible way. And given the fact that the flower existed in Elpis for at least several centuries by that point, based on the convo with Timaios, the fact that none have observed a shift leads me to believe that there’s either two options. Either the Ancients just don’t have emotional moods, which would be ridiculous I agree, or those shifts are being prevented from affecting change in the flower. The latter seems like a better fit, though exactly why Hermes gets through that remains unknown to me. Maybe the depth of emotion? Grief is a powerful one, and the Ancients didn’t exactly seem well versed on how it felt.

The flower may not change all the time and only be affected by strong enough emotions. But what I'm saying is: the ancients are aware that the flower reacts to emotionS. Plural. In order to observe such a behavior it must have reacted to something else. Not just "default white - black when Hermes is brooding." They speak about changes in hue and vibrancy. They're describing a spectrum. How can they claim that if they only ever saw it change for 1 person and 1 emotional state?

Problem is dynamis is partly defined by the difficulty you have in interacting with it. As stated before, while we don’t have objective statements on the matter, dynamis has shown to be manipulated only by those with the will and emotions to do so while also being aetherically weak enough to not crowd it out. While I’m sure an experienced group could make entelechies not as susceptible to environmental emotions as Meteion, they’d still need free will and to have a reason to overcome Meteions song. The Scions fought for the those back home and for their friends, would a creation not given a choice in the matter do so?

I’m not gonna say it’s impossible but I just think unlikely given what we’ve been told.

And that's why I told you about "creative solutions". They didn't need to go and fight Meteion as we did. Dynamis is an energy. They could have chugged on that same dynamis and make her dry on it so she's less powerful (think of Eureka, for example, and how the original plan was to reverse the flow of aether so the primal was cut short of it until it was completely dry). They could use that energy to create something or power up something.

Or another idea: how about instead of making a shield around the planet they just went and make an aether prison encasing Meteion? Remember, dynamis gets drowned by aether because it's far weaker (Hermes says so himself). Sure, Meteion had a head start towards the end of the universe, but like I said, she's a mere pet project, made by Hermes alone in his spare time. A whole team seriously devoted to the study of dynamis could have come up with more efficient ways to use it and create better, more efficient entities and devices to catch up with her before she became too powerful or have exploited the fact that aether > dynamis anyway.

[EaraGrace]

The flower may not change all the time and only be affected by strong enough emotions. But what I'm saying is: the ancients are aware that the flower reacts to emotionS. Plural. In order to observe such a behavior it must have reacted to something else. Not just "default white - black when Hermes is brooding." They speak about changes in hue and vibrancy. They're describing a spectrum. How can they claim that if they only ever saw it change for 1 person and 1 emotional state?

We learn that tidbit from Hermes, when asking the other researchers all struggle to comprehend how Meteion even works. In fact we knew more about Dynamis and the flowers then they did.

And that's why I told you about "creative solutions". They didn't need to go and fight Meteion as we did. Dynamis is an energy. They could have chugged on that same dynamis and make her dry on it so she's less powerful (think of Eureka, for example, and how the original plan was to reverse the flow of aether so the primal was cut short of it until it was completely dry). They could use that energy to create something or power up something.

I guess I’m just a skeptic.

Or another idea: how about instead of making a shield around the planet they just went and make an aether prison encasing Meteion? Remember, dynamis gets drowned by aether because it's far weaker (Hermes says so himself). Sure, Meteion had a head start towards the end of the universe, but like I said, she's a mere pet project, made by Hermes alone in his spare time. A whole team seriously devoted to the study of dynamis could have come up with more efficient ways to use it and create better, more efficient entities and devices to catch up with her before she became too powerful or have exploited the fact that aether > dynamis anyway.

It’s only drowned out because aether is more common in Etheirys. Dynamis however is more common than aether and thus such a solution wouldn’t work. And any plan would have to contend with the inability to reach her. Remember, it took millennia for Hydaelyn to collect the Aether necessary to reach Ultima. Any plan would be facing her at that strength.

[Sicno]

We learn that tidbit from Hermes, when asking the other researchers all struggle to comprehend how Meteion even works. In fact we knew more about Dynamis and the flowers then they did.

We were arguing whether the flowers would react to them, not if they knew about how to manipulate them to get a desired color. Dynamis knowledge is not a requirement for having emotions. As for the topic of knowledge of dynamis manipulation by the ancients in general, Hermes says that it's "a truly esoteric thing, known to but a select few scholars". There were more people who know about it. We just may not find them inside Elpis, which remember, it was only a research facility. What we saw wasn't the entire ancient world but a tiny fraction.

It’s only drowned out because aether is more common in Etheirys. Dynamis however is more common than aether and thus such a solution wouldn’t work.

Yes, they say there's more dynamis than aether in the universe, but do they explicitly state anywhere that this is the reason for aether prevailing? Or is it just a supposition? Now I'm the skeptic. Even with all the dynamis available in the universe Meteion couldn't get past Zodiark's barrier which used only the aether present in Etheirys. If it was a mere matter of quantity she would have broken that barrier long ago, especially when the Source was only a 1/14th fraction.

And any plan would have to contend with the inability to reach her. Remember, it took millennia for Hydaelyn to collect the Aether necessary to reach Ultima. Any plan would be facing her at that strength.

And that's why I keep bringing the point that they could have engineered better, more efficient entelechies than her in every aspect. Our spaceship did require ridiculous amounts of aether but it seems that just using aether for such a travel is inefficient. It took the Meteion sisters mere days to scout the entire universe. This was an entelechy made by a single guy during his lunch breaks. There would be no "inability to reach her" if they had devoted seriously to a solution. If only someone would have warned them so they could implement such a solution.

Edit: Even bloody Zenos was able to reach Ultima Thule using leftovers from the mothercrystal, which shouldn't be that much aether in total. It didn't take him that long either.