What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[OhNooo]

Elsewhere, the game highlights that non-consensual acts, even when there is a 'good reason' are unpleasant for the target...Equally, the same can be said of the Sundering. It wasn't a consensual act. Venat's followers were the minority within the Ancient world. She admits herself that there was no kindness or justice in the act - and yet there are still some, unfortunately, seeking to pretend as if the Sundering is some big, heroic thing that was all sunshine and rainbows.

This is exactly how I see it too. In my opinion, Venat and her supporters are the same as Hermes - different sides of the same coin in that they decided to judge mankind as if they are the creator of the universe, take away their agency and consent, and decide for everyone how they would live. In Venat's case, it's actually kind of twisted for me because it's like someone giving you the choice between getting r*ped or killed. And then everyone else is like "Well yeah that was morally questionable but it's better than losing your life!" It's a gross violation of a person's autonomy and some things are worse than death in my opinion. I can't imagine it felt good to be torn apart like that, even though the writers don't get into those specifics. But if we were to go by the "stylistic" cutscene of Venat limping around, it looks like it was probably a very painful thing.

Imagine being an ancient and you just lost everyone you care about and are still grieving while trying to hold it together. Meanwhile someone you probably respect a lot is judging you and looking at you with a mix of self-righteousness and pity before basically taking on a role as the judge of the whole planet and deciding how your life will look from now on. Venat and her supporters betrayed their people and then "traded" them in like they were currency for a new group of beings who would maybe or maybe not find an answer to the sound and the only reason it all worked out is because it's an mmo and we can't die so it has to end in our favor.

Anyway, that's my opinion of the whole Venat thing. As far as the story goes for the future expansions...I'm going to be honest and say that I probably won't be invested at all in the future arcs. As several posters have mentioned, it could be better for some players not to look at the story too closely or else you might not enjoy it anymore lol so in my case this probably calls for a casual glance at the new stories but no more analyzing. A lot of it falls apart for me when I delve deeper into EW like I do with books.

[KizuyaKatogami]

This is exactly how I see it too. In my opinion, Venat and her supporters are the same as Hermes - different sides of the same coin in that they decided to judge mankind as if they are the creator of the universe, take away their agency and consent, and decide for everyone how they would live. In Venat's case, it's actually kind of twisted for me because it's like someone giving you the choice between getting r*ped or killed. And then everyone else is like "Well yeah that was morally questionable but it's better than losing your life!" It's a gross violation of a person's autonomy and some things are worse than death in my opinion. I can't imagine it felt good to be torn apart like that, even though the writers don't get into those specifics. But if we were to go by the "stylistic" cutscene of Venat limping around, it looks like it was probably a very painful thing.

Imagine being an ancient and you just lost everyone you care about and are still grieving while trying to hold it together. Meanwhile someone you probably respect a lot is judging you and looking at you with a mix of self-righteousness and pity before basically taking on a role as the judge of the whole planet and deciding how your life will look from now on. Venat and her supporters betrayed their people and then "traded" them in like they were currency for a new group of beings who would maybe or maybe not find an answer to the sound and the only reason it all worked out is because it's an mmo and we can't die so it has to end in our favor.

Anyway, that's my opinion of the whole Venat thing. As far as the story goes for the future expansions...I'm going to be honest and say that I probably won't be invested at all in the future arcs. As several posters have mentioned, it could be better for some players not to look at the story too closely or else you might not enjoy it anymore lol so in my case this probably calls for a casual glance at the new stories but no more analyzing. A lot of it falls apart for me when I delve deeper into EW like I do with books.

It’s really interesting to me because before, when seeing the name Venat i didn’t think they were actually going to go through with making a 1:1 rendition of the same named character from 12, but in the end they really are mirrors of each other. Both go against their own people. Both side with the human type race and thinks what they’re doing is for the betterment of them, but in FF12 Venat’s case, what she did actually ended up being bad for humanity. Her actions and manipulation resulted in magic slowly being taken away from the world. This is essentially what the sundering was. It’s crazy though how in 12 it’s a pretty clear cut, she isn’t good, but in 14 they try and paint her as this benevolent hero. It’s why i can’t really take any of these themes seriously. If the writers consider what she did worthy of being called a hero…i don’t trust them to be trying to preach about any themes lol.

[OhNooo]

It’s crazy though how in 12 it’s a pretty clear cut, she isn’t good, but in 14 they try and paint her as this benevolent hero. It’s why i can’t really take any of these themes seriously. If the writers consider what she did worthy of being called a hero…i don’t trust them to be trying to preach about any themes lol.

I need to play FF12. Currently I just started on FF9 which is the only other FF series besides XIV that I've done. Eventually I'm hoping to get to the others. But yeah, I've heard others mention the Venat in FF12 and I wonder if they intended to go in that direction but then changed it? To be honest, it looks to me like they really didn't have a clear plan on how to end the arc. When you compare the elements of the story from the beginning to EW (such as their portrayal of the Ascians among other things), it looks like they were just writing for each individual expansion and then building upon that as the years went by.

At least in the previous expansions I felt like the writers were displaying their work for the player to come up with their own interpretations. EW is the first time I felt like they were really pushing for a point of view and were trying to *tell* me how to interpret the story and I'm not a fan of that. I wanted more...show not tell? And instead, I felt like I got way more tell - "life is meaningless but push through suffering and have hope! Hope hope hope. Did I mention don't give up and have hope?"

[TaleraRistain]

It’s really interesting to me because before, when seeing the name Venat i didn’t think they were actually going to go through with making a 1:1 rendition of the same named character from 12, but in the end they really are mirrors of each other. Both go against their own people. Both side with the human type race and thinks what they’re doing is for the betterment of them, but in FF12 Venat’s case, what she did actually ended up being bad for humanity. Her actions and manipulation resulted in magic slowly being taken away from the world.

It wasn't bad for humanity. The Occuria had used the Sun-Cryst to completely control Ivalician history. They crowned Dynast Kings who would do what *they* wanted and run things their way. They locked away beings like the espers who disagreed with them. Venat's actions freed humanity from Occurian control by ending the Age of Stones.

They were using Rasler to manipulate Ashe into doing what they wanted the entire game. The Occuria were the true villains.

[KizuyaKatogami]

It wasn't bad for humanity. The Occuria had used the Sun-Cryst to completely control Ivalician history. They crowned Dynast Kings who would do what *they* wanted and run things their way. They locked away beings like the espers who disagreed with them. Venat's actions freed humanity from Occurian control by ending the Age of Stones.

They were using Rasler to manipulate Ashe into doing what they wanted the entire game. The Occuria were the true villains.

Except they were the only thing keeping humanity from collapsing on itself and they were preventing it’s extinction. Yes they locked up the Espers because they literally led a revolt against them with Ultima at the head of it all. Yes they manipulated Ashe, because what Venat was doing would doom both sides and in the end it essentially did. Magic is slowly sucked out of the world. We see partial results of all of this in 12-2 as well. Venat’s actions caused untold suffering for the rest of humanity and the worlds existence. The “freedom” was a bit of a sham as humanity itself mostly had freedom, it was only until they would cause themselves to wipe themselves out that the occuria intervened.

[TaleraRistain]

Except they were the only thing keeping humanity from collapsing on itself and they were preventing it’s extinction. Yes they locked up the Espers because they literally led a revolt against them with Ultima at the head of it all. Yes they manipulated Ashe, because what Venat was doing would doom both sides and in the end it essentially did. Magic is slowly sucked out of the world. We see partial results of all of this in 12-2 as well. Venat’s actions caused untold suffering for the rest of humanity and the worlds existence. The “freedom” was a bit of a sham as humanity itself mostly had freedom, it was only until they would cause themselves to wipe themselves out that the occuria intervened.

Instead of letting humanity handle things itself. I dunno if you've played Mass Effect, but you just argued for the Reaper outlook of why they need to destroy civilizations before they get too technologically advanced. And they're the bad guys.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Instead of letting humanity handle things itself. I dunno if you've played Mass Effect, but you just argued for the Reaper outlook of why they need to destroy civilizations before they get too technologically advanced. And they're the bad guys.

They did let humanity handle things itself. It was only when humanity got to the point of wiping themselves out that they rightfully intervened. How is that advocating for destroying civilizations? They were preventing the self destruction of the human race lmao. Either way though, even if what you said was the case, none of that even remotely justifies what venat did. It doesnt even make it grey morality. In the end she was fulfilling her own selfish desires and takin humanity out with her. Such a queen.You're bringing in i guess a race? fFrom another series that doesnt even really compare to what we're talking about. You seem to also be ignoring that the end of the occuria ended up meaning the world turns into a dark age.One of the characters in 12-2(i believe its fran) laments that getting rid of the occuria was a mistake,and they would feel the effects of Venat's actions for a millenia.Also...what you jusr described is basically ff14 venat lmao.

[TaleraRistain]

They did let humanity handle things itself. It was only when humanity got to the point of wiping themselves out that they rightfully intervened. How is that advocating for destroying civilizations? They were preventing the self destruction of the human race lmao.

Because the whole deal with the Reapers in Mass Effect is that they were created as the solution to having the organics and the synthetics in the galaxy destroying each other. They regularly collect information about the civilizations in the galaxy and then purge it before it can reach a level where it would destroy itself. I bring them up because that's exactly what the Occuria do. They control and manipulate instead of letting humanity make its own mistakes. When you destroy the Reapers at the end of Mass Effect and destroy the relays that allow travel across the universe, yeah, there are people who are going to think that's a mistake, too. But it gives humanity a chance to rebuild on their terms, not because some far-off being decided for them. Same with humanity giving the finger to the Occuria in XII. Keep in mind the Occuria wanted Ashe to destroy Archadia and they didn't give a fig for what innocents might have been hurt by that. Instead by defying what the Occuria wanted, Archadia gains a good leader in Larsa and a solid protector in Basch, and Ashe can run her kingdom the way she chooses to. And they're at peace instead of war.

The Ancients are a lot like the Occuria. They have processes to decide what is "worthy" to live, which was one of the main things Hermes took issue with. They've set themselves up as the arbiters of what happens on the star. Except for a couple of exceptions, they won't intervene to help others. There's that one pair in Amaurot who are arguing about just that. They hold themselves aloof and disconnected and have one seat on their Convocation that does their dirty work in going out and understanding civilizations for them. And they consider that person the weirdo. The right or wrong of Venat's actions in XIV can be debated until the cows come home, but she did put the control back in mankind's hands, for better or worse.