What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Midareyukki]

This

exchange

:| I liked the story. I just know that there were less successful parts and parts that rubbed me the wrong way. And as many people have told me before, people are allowed to post their opinions on the forums. Keep in mind that both of my latest replies always make sure to point out that it's both hypothetical, personal and that it's possible reality wouldn't match. I was just entertaining someone else's perspective, which happened to agree with some of the takes I, personally, got from the story.

And it's fine to enjoy the story. I'm sure there was another thread lurking around that was dedicated to praising it. Yet you don't see it being touted half as much. I wonder why... Still. The most obvious vitriolic answer is "because the forums love to complain and be negative, so all positivity is buried". And I got no good answer to that, I'm not the entirety of the forums, and I did try to make positive posts before.

Some people were frustrated at parts of the story that I wasn't. And some stuff I shine a more negative light because of how I personally interpreted a certain scene or two. But upon revisiting them, I start to understand why some people interpreted them as neutral or even positive. I won't shy away from criticising my own views. Emet Selch's quote that I posted doesn't need to be met with a negative outlook. Nuances of writing are hard to iron out, and there's only so much anyone can say. He's not real for us to ask him any further questions, nor are we playing a game where we were given such a luxury. Meaning you can interpret what Emet said differently than me. And at least I can agree that I might be looking into things a bit too much.

Ex falso quodlibet. The moment you have a false premiss, you can come up with anything. That's my stance on my last two entries.

I won't deny that some people are more negative than I might be, nor that I myself haven't posted that much here that could be met as positive. But, two things:
1 - I don't have to judge those people, nor do I have to judge you for being any more positive/negative than me.
2 - As many people love to point out, the forums are barely 1% of the playerbase. And overall, Endwalker was very well received. The only lamentable thing about this thread might just be that it's on the official platform. That's all.
But it's because of those two things that reacting to things with "Ugh, circlejerk, poor writers" is you doing the exact opposite face of the coin of what you complain.

It's good that people enjoy this story. At best we have people who want it to be improved upon, at worst we have people who just don't enjoy it anymore. All three are valid. If I think the writers got insecure at some point in the process, I'm not pointing fingers. I'd like them to be more comfortable with what they got, and wonder why that would be. I'm not out for their blood and hey... as English speakers say, "everyone's a critic".

But the ideals part baffles me. What ideals? Did Emet have ideals? I thought he was painted as a "by any means necessary" kind of guy adhering to his duty who had little regard for principles, morals, notions of good and evil - he frequently resented being seen as a villain, and seemed to view to everything through the lens of "is this useful to me?" rather than anything else. His ideals that the Ancients were superior? That the world should have been rejoined? As you say, were they genuinely trying to shoehorn in a quick "I don't regret any of the suffering I caused" in the same moment they were trying to make him a grudging protagonist?

I think so, at least from how he put it in Elpis and the rest. "By any means necessary" was just his method. A way to achieve his ideal. Which is the interesting part in Elpis, knowing that he wasn't a murder hobo before and held life in great esteem. When he got Tempered, that got warped, and so too did his ideal. Which is what rubbed me wrong at Ultima Thule.

"My ideals are inviolate, you didn't change them" made me feel like he was still clinging onto his latter ideals than the ones we discussed at Elpis. That he'd do it all over again given the chance. And "it" implied killing a bunch of people, which his elder self was disgusted by.

I believe the "ideals" quote was just so they could make a clumsy reference to his battle theme ("Invincible"), just like the entire ten years saga was jeopardized for the probably late decision to make it fit Answers's lyrics.
This is after all, the same scene where Emet-Selch was blatently used as a living advertisement for future content, their focus wasn't on writing a compelling closure on his character.

:x If that was the case, then I agree it was clumsy. On the virtue that there were better-executed references to songs in the game. Stuff that people quickly spotted. Usually lyrics. Good catch though Kazhar xD I only ever think of "Who Brings Shadow", so that completely went over my head!

[Lunaxia]

If this thread makes you sad...

Just ignore them. They feel the need to express themselves in the face of criticism, and they're more than at liberty to do so, but it's just a waste of energy engaging with it at this point. Let them say their piece and move on.

I think so...

Perfectly valid interpretation and reaction, really. It's an odd thing to say, and I'm being pretty generous in light of how much they tried to hammer home what a good guy he was at heart in Elpis. He does call himself a megalomaniacal madman, and the story more or less admits he has infiltrated, raised up and crushed what we can only assume to be countless civilisations - Allag and Garlemald simply being the mightiest - which there's something a little more... sinister about than the other, more simplistic wanton destructive methods employed by the Ascians. Honestly, I don't know if I actually agree with the game's implied message that any good-hearted person would be driven to such acts by what he went through, but none of us could even imagine the reality of living that long, so who knows?

I believe the "ideals" quote was just so they could make a clumsy reference to his battle theme ("Invincible"), just like the entire ten years saga was jeopardized by the probably late decision to make it fit Answers's lyrics.
This is after all, the same scene where Emet-Selch was blatantly used as a living advertisement for future content, their focus wasn't on writing a compelling closure for his character.

Oh, absolutely, with all the subtlety of a brick through the window, but I still find it interesting to dissect the meaning behind... and what they were hoping to gain from it.

[SpectrePhantasia]

Been a while since I've posted so I thought I'd give renewed input on the topic of Emet's revised characterization between expansions.

Just looking at Emet-selch's writing in Shadowbringers compared to Endwalker tells me that the devs didn't know what they had when they created him. The Emet-selch of Shadowbringers was an incredibly complex villain, whose inner turmoil between his moral compass and duty have resulted in a hollow bitter shell of a man, who has absolutely nothing left, but his dream of yesterday. He's watched society crumble from the greatest of heights through violence and death on a scale he'd have scarcely thought possible, and every time small inklings of hope crawl into his heart, smidgens of sympathy for the remnants of his people, like in his son, they betray him with their frailty, and in his mind, prove him right all over again. At the core of it all though, he was tired. Tired of hurting people and tired of his burden's weight. He was a wonderfully contradictory man who in the end, deserved condemnation as a result of the terrible tragedies he was responsible for, but also respect in knowing that he was only ever doing it for the people that he loved.

And then Endwalker proceeded to do a fine job of butchering this conflict so completely and utterly that even almost a full year later I'm not over it. For the record, I absolutely love Emet-selch, and enjoyed Endwalkers fanservice of him for what it was, but the fact of the matter is, everything about him that made him compelling and complex was cast aside in favor of making him a grumbly tsundere. If it were simply in the past, it would be one thing, but not only is the severity of his actions largely handwaved with the Warrior of Light's clear reverence of him, (though compared to what Venat got imo it was paltry) he is never given the room to be the character he used to be and was little more than a dev mouthpiece to tease new areas.

Perhaps in a misguided attempt to convey a feeling of 'unity' the plot tries its absolute hardest to make you forget about the inevitable conflict between the Ascians and Hydaelyn. They were broadly wrong and she was broadly right, but you're never going to see this conflict from the past in full, that would be impossible; because then you would have to confront the numerous layers of grey in the whole situation, and that was simply unthinkable for the sterile portrayals of morality here. That's why the disparities in Emet-selch were so noticeable. His whole character hinges on that bent morality. Never in Endwalker does Emet-selch oppose Venat or her methods directly, despite her being the person responsible for his thousands of years of misery. In the end it becomes a simple, dumbed-down tale of general hope vs general despair and anything deeper than that doesn't matter.

Very unfortunate conclusion to what was extremely well written build-up.

[Striker44]

The fact that this thread is still going after all these months makes me real sad for the writers. Endwalker wasn’t perfect but this thread feels like a contrarian circlejerk. Oh well. I loved it. I’ll always have fond memories of playing through it for the first time. I’ll never forget the final solo duty. Completey unexpected, it blew my mind. What a rush that was. I loved endwalker

Remember that it goes this long because EW is also one of the most popular and loved expansions. Every single expansion in the game's history has had the echo chamber of negativity on this forum trash it. Usually the conversation peters out because there aren't many people defending it. This xpac is the exception. Many people in this thread also post about how much they enjoyed EW.

Good for you if you enjoyed it. Genuinely, I'm happy for people who can still enjoy the game in some way. But just because you enjoyed it doesn't mean it is free of severe problems, nor does it negate the disappointment and frustration many felt when playing through it or thinking on it after the 'magic' wore off.

Actually, it can mean that, just like you personally not enjoying it doesn't mean it has any "severe problems" either. That is likewise a purely personal opinion which others can completely disagree with. The "many" you speak of by the way, are quite simply non-existent. This forum contains the most absurdly minuscule few compared to the hundreds of thousands of players. Please don't claim to speak for any of them.

[Kaoru_Nagisa]

Actually, it can mean that, just like you personally not enjoying it doesn't mean it has any "severe problems" either. That is likewise a purely personal opinion which others can completely disagree with. The "many" you speak of by the way, are quite simply non-existent. This forum contains the most absurdly minuscule few compared to the hundreds of thousands of players. Please don't claim to speak for any of them.

Oh look. You're still here.

Yawn.

[Kazhar]

I believe the "ideals" quote was just so they could make a clumsy reference to his battle theme ("Invincible"), just like the entire ten years saga was jeopardized by the probably late decision to make it fit Answers's lyrics.
This is after all, the same scene where Emet-Selch was blatantly used as a living advertisement for future content, their focus wasn't on writing a compelling closure for his character.

[MagiusNecros]

I think they fucked over Emet Selch and Hydaelyn in the writing department. The OG Hydaelyn and ShB Emet Selch were amazing. The plot took a nosedive in Endwalker.

[Atelier-Bagur]

I think they fucked over Emet Selch and Hydaelyn in the writing department. The OG Hydaelyn and ShB Emet Selch were amazing. The plot took a nosedive in Endwalker.

The OG Hydaelyn? What on earth are you talking about?

[Lelila38]

They should have allowed Hydaelyn to act as a well-meaning antagonist. All it would have taken was for the scions to call her out on her crimes and the disparity between what was shown and what was perceived by many would have been resolved.

She would have made a great antagonist on par, if not better than Yunalesca from X.