What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[CrownySuccubus]

LL Q&A @ 3:41:25 - How did the unsundered escape being sundered?

Venat let Emet live on purpose. He happened to be with Lahabrea and Elidibus at the time and helped each other escape through a "crack" into the rift.

Got it. Well, good to have clarification on that, assuming they don't change their minds again. I accept that I was wrong, though.

Well, he had his chance and didn't take it instead choosing to befriend and journey with us. It wasn't until the WoL failed to contain the light aether of all the Lightwardens, something that would've been inconsequential to the Ancients, that he became disappointed. There's an interview with Yoshi-P about this somewhere too, about how Emet wanted to believe we were Azem but our failure made him think he was mistaken. It's part of why when we merge with Ardbert and he sees the shade of Azem he's still in denial. At that point, however, we had become the aggressors. Believe me, I would've loved to have had the option to sit and talk, but the game said I had to throw down. :P

Yeah, my but my basic point was that Emet made his choices. The only reason he chooses to be civil with the WOL is because he thinks there's something unique about them that might A) prove that further Rejoinings aren't necessary or B) let the WOL remember their time as friends and join his side. I personally believe that even if he didn't care about killing other "Sundered" Ascians, he probably would have made an exception for Azem and fought to protect them no matter what. But, his cruelty and contempt for everyone else was still his own doing. (Which is, of course, what makes him such a compelling antagonist.)

[anhaato]

If we had gone with the option of helping them defeat the Final Days for good and allow their society to keep surviving then our ability to go back to Elpis and do fates would’ve made far more sense than it does now. After going back there to help them, we return to the tower and then, on our way out, we watch 12k years proceed in hyper speed until the new timeline is back up to speed parallel to ours. Thanks to the reverse-engineered powers of Omega we now have the ability to travel space-time and hop timelines, giving us access to Elpis as a zone that looks mildly different than it did during its msq arc. I feel it wouldn’t look too too different because 12k years isn’t that long for the ancients, maybe a few new structures here and there.

That would’ve also made for huge potential for an emotional moment with Emet when we contact his soul somehow. He’d get a chance to see his world, and a version of himself, all in one piece living a better future.

[Lauront]

If we had gone with the option of helping them defeat the Final Days for good and allow their society to keep surviving then our ability to go back to Elpis and do fates would’ve made far more sense than it does now. After going back there to help them, we return to the tower and then, on our way out, we watch 12k years proceed in hyper speed until the new timeline is back up to speed parallel to ours. Thanks to the reverse-engineered powers of Omega we now have the ability to travel space-time and hop timelines, giving us access to Elpis as a zone that looks mildly different than it did during its msq arc. I feel it wouldn’t look too too different because 12k years isn’t that long for the ancients, maybe a few new structures here and there.

That would’ve also made for huge potential for an emotional moment with Emet when we contact his soul somehow. He’d get a chance to see his world, and a version of himself, all in one piece living a better future.

Agreed, it'd make much more sense.

LL Q&A @ 3:41:25 - How did the unsundered escape being sundered?

Venat let Emet live on purpose. He happened to be with Lahabrea and Elidibus at the time and helped each other escape through a "crack" into the rift.



Well, he had his chance and didn't take it instead choosing to befriend and journey with us. It wasn't until the WoL failed to contain the light aether of all the Lightwardens, something that would've been inconsequential to the Ancients, that he became disappointed. There's an interview with Yoshi-P about this somewhere too, about how Emet wanted to believe we were Azem but our failure made him think he was mistaken. It's part of why when we merge with Ardbert and he sees the shade of Azem he's still in denial. At that point, however, we had become the aggressors. Believe me, I would've loved to have had the option to sit and talk, but the game said I had to throw down. :P

Yeah, it's this one.

[Chasingstars]

Would anyone here call Ramuh evil? A primal that sought to protect their section of the forest from invaders such as the Garleans or the Adders or the Scions or even us. A primal that only tempered Sylphs as a defensive measure. A primal that, in order to prove our worth to them, we had to fight in combat and eventually take down. That by proving ourselves, we have shown we are capable of protecting the Sylphs, their future is entrusted to us.

Would anyone here call Hydaelyn evil? A primal that sought to protect the thirteen reflection worlds and the source world from the invaders of the Ascians and of Meteion. A primal that only tempered Menphilia as a defensive measure and way to speak with us, eventually giving Menphilia her own will back. A primal that, in order to prove our worth to them, we had to fight in combat and eventually take down. That by proving ourselves, we have shown we are capable of protecting the star and inhabitants, that all those peoples future is entrusted to us.

The WOL? Never tempered. It was just a traveler's ward to protection from aether being corrupted, such as by way of tempering. We always had free will, and the WOL always strived to do good.

[Skyborne]

Would anyone here call Hydaelyn evil? A primal that sought to protect the thirteen reflection worlds and the source world from the invaders of the Ascians and of Meteion. A primal that only tempered Menphilia as a defensive measure and way to speak with us, eventually giving Menphilia her own will back. A primal that, in order to prove our worth to them, we had to fight in combat and eventually take down. That by proving ourselves, we have shown we are capable of protecting the star and inhabitants, that all those peoples future is entrusted to us.

Thirteen and one worlds that were "created" at the expense of a people whose culture was wiped out and buried with even the real name of the world hidden. And the Ascians who turned out to be the native inhabitants of said crushed and shattered world, who wanted to correct what they saw as a huge mistake without knowledge of the actual cause. And she had full knowledge this would occur thanks to timeloop chicken/egg paradox. Even then, I don't think anyone argued that her actions didn't benefit the Sundered...

It's basically as dark grey as you can get but is treated pretty much as 'white' by our heroic beneficieries who don't seem to care at all. That sucks, but I got mine!

[aveyond-dreams]

Yes, Hydaelyn was evil. Her hubris and her questionable motivations stand on logic with the consistency of sand. Whether she sees herself as such is another matter entirely. Her role is that of a fallen angel who is responsible for a Celestial Schism which saw all of humanity condemned to a world of suffering, and the loss of the equivalent of the Garden of Eden.

There were likely other ways to resolve the Meteion situation, but instead time-travelling-memory-wipes had to be thrown into the mix. For some reason.

[Chasingstars]

Yes, Hydaelyn was evil.

And the memory wipe was caused by not Hydaylen.

The ascians, a terrorist organization, who killed untold millions of lives across the 13 Reflections AND the Source in a misguided attempt to a free their god. Said imprisoned god, was being used as a shield to keep a thick and dense membrane layer around the source to protect it from Meteion's corrupting influence. That when Zodiark was gone, we saw the effects of what happened, that people transformed into Blasphmies and killed their loved ones and neighbors.

After all, why the worlds are filled with suffering, who helped escalate that into cataclymisc levels? Oh right, the ascians.

Oh and to add to the suffering pile, who made the voidsent and sin eaters? Ascians. Ya know things that wantonly kill others, corrupt people into monstrosties, that these things feed off the aether of living people.

Or hey, who taught the various beast tribes a flawed version of creation magic that would result in the primals summoned in this manner to have a compulsion to assimilate aka temper others? A S C I A N S.

Also said primal summonings were augmented with live sacrifice, that if it weren't beast tribe, we would be talking about human sacrifical rites.

Hey, ya know how an ascian can 'possess' someone and take over their body and rob them of free will? That is a variation of the same tempering magic that is instilled into their primals. That said primals without ascian meddling would be far far far far more benevolent than what we actually encountered.

Or hey even if you want to justify it with Elidibus or Emet-Selch or Hythlodaeus, on how you want to have sympathy for them. Its only understandable if you mean the post-mortem versions of them whose souls were cleansed in the astral sea and so they might actually be the proper people they were meant to be rather than what caused the great evils.

Or hey lets go back to Zodiark. Okay lets say the Ascians freed him, the heart was Elidbus and he never got defeated by us. What was their grand plan with Zodiark? Oh you know to sacrifice half the world's population to restore the lives of their people as that is how Zodiark works, sacrifice half of the people to get the desired result. Of more powerful entitys who view the average human, you and me, as flawed and imperfect disgusting things that according to them have no right to exist and are merely mistakes. Of human lives only being viewed as chattel and a thing to be sacrificed later for ascians.

If you think Hydaelyn is still evil after all this, I don't know what to tell you.

[Lauront]

If you think Hydaelyn is still evil after all this, I don't know what to tell you.

If you think everything the Ascians did was evil, given the fact that she set Emet-Selch aside, knowing what would happen from what you told her, then by extension so is she in part. You're basically complaining about what the Ascians did, ignoring all the context behind it. And sorry but if the Ascians are a "terrorist" organisation, what does that make her, who sundered their people and the star? Give me a break. You can blame them all you like. As per the Q&A, she enabled this, so if they're to blame, so is she.

And even if people still think Hydaylen is evil because of suffering, news flash, our real world is filled with suffering and its how you actually go about your daily life to trudge through the suffering to actually have a semblance of a pleasant life. Which is what Hydaylen was doing, trudging through all that misery for hope of a better tomorrow.

If someone tried to lobotomise me or maim me because they thought my life could do with a bit more suffering, yes, I'd have a problem with that.

[Chasingstars]

You're basically complaining about what the Ascians did, ignoring all the context behind it.

No I explained the context behind it. You are sticking fingers in your ears because you don't want to believe.

And sorry but if the Ascians are a "terrorist" organisation, what does that make her, who sundered their people and the star?

A person who saved the star and prevented their own people, the ancients, in future generations from being used as sacrifices to help power the machine that is Zodiark.

she enabled this, so if they're to blame, so is she.

Group of people who murdered millions of people across the 14 worlds VS person who created the 14 worlds. You going to side with the mass murderers on this? Fascinating.

If someone tried to lobotomise me or maim me because they thought my life could do with a bit more suffering, yes, I'd have a problem with that.

So if someone tempered you, would have a problem with that? So you would have a problem with the Ascians. As that is their shtick.

[Lauront]

No I explained the context behind it. You are sticking fingers in your ears because you don't want to believe.

Nah, you're not "explaining" anything, so lose the patronising tone. You're trying to list out the actions of the Ascians while ignoring what set those in motion. We're all familiar with what the Ascians did. You're not addressing the fact that she allowed for this.

She genocided her people and allowed Emet-Selch to escape the sundering while never being explained to why this was all happening, so she basically set in motion what would become the Ascians. Her goal in sundering the world has nothing to do with stopping the sacrifices as such, because they were not interminable; it is because of her belief that her people would end up like the Plenty, and secondarily, to enable easier manipulation of dynamis.

Group of people who murdered millions of people across the 14 worlds VS person who created the 14 worlds. You going to side with the mass murderers on this? Fascinating.

Worlds created through genocide of the ancients, yes. Let us look at it this way. If Hydaelyn rocked up in front of the Scions, told them they had to be sundered because, lo after all these thousands of years, she's now decided they're still too wed to the notion of improving the world through "better tomorrows", and not to worry, because even though this would end them as a species, more life would spring out of it, what do you think the answer would be? Maybe something like this?

So if someone tempered you, would have a problem with that? So you would have a problem with the Ascians. As that is their shtick.

If you're here to whine about the Ascians, go find some other tree to bark up. We're aware of what the Ascians got up to.