Yoshi-P Statement on Player Feedback

[Rinhi]

What is it with people struggling to grasp the notion; "It is not what you say but how you say it" - You don't need to outright be offensive or rude.

what is it with people like you saying things like that and then starting to go on a toxic tirade against the people they disagree with, which happens throughout the whole thread? several posts had zero indication that the person criticizing the devs/their job design or whatever used any mean words, yet people like you go on huge rants about how they must've been overtly aggressive and come to other various assumption about the other side of the argument to vilify the other side
follow your own words, for once and be nice

Simply stating, or trying to push the agenda that the developers are lazy, particularly from people who aren't even remotely qualified to do the self-same job, or of equal proportion is almost absurdly laughable. #

the big majority of people who voice their concerns and issues with the game do so in a completely civil and constructive ways and the same crap happens, and yes, some of the people are or have been game devs and yet, people are still attacking them because to some people SE can do no wrong

and stop with this "you need to be qualified in X to be able to judge Y" fanboy/girl crap, it's never been an actual argument
not for art, not for music, not for game design, not for anything

[Krotoan]

and stop with this "you need to be qualified in X to be able to judge Y" fanboy/girl crap, it's never been an actual argument
not for art, not for music, not for game design, not for anything

You don't have to work or be an expert in the field to critique or give feedback on a product or service. However you probably should know something about the actual process if you're going to start criticizing the character and work ethic of the people behind them.

[Rinhi]

You don't have to work or be an expert in the field to critique or give feedback on a product or service. However you probably should know something about the actual process if you're going to start criticizing the character and work ethic of the people behind them.

...which many people that got attacked in this thread didn't do, not to mention that it's, in my eyes, completely valid to complain and criticize said work ethic when it results in issues like these - or the current undertune of dancer and whm's mp issues, which should have been noticed when testing

[StriderShinryu]

You don't have to work or be an expert in the field to critique or give feedback on a product or service. However you probably should know something about the actual process if you're going to start criticizing the character and work ethic of the people behind them.

It's also worth bearing in mind that none of us here have actually been in the CB3 offices or are privy to the design decision priorities of SE.
Bob might be most capable, energetic coder ever. He might truly work his butt off at what he does, cramming away for 12 hour days. But if he's assigned to work on something that isn't Exactly.What.The.Players.Want. then he gets slammed for being lazy. What comes out of the SE offices and into the final game has pretty much nothing to do with the individual contributions of individual staff members, even if they are senior level staff.

[kpxmanifesto]

and stop with this "you need to be qualified in X to be able to judge Y" fanboy/girl crap, it's never been an actual argument

It's a desperation move aimed at discrediting someone's criticism. It's a fallacy called "Appeal to accomplishment" and it's a type of logical fallacy, so their argument is immediately considered invalid.

[Kaurhz]

what is it with people like you saying things like that and then starting to go on a toxic tirade against the people they disagree with, which happens throughout the whole thread? several posts had zero indication that the person criticizing the devs/their job design or whatever used any mean words, yet people like you go on huge rants about how they must've been overtly aggressive and come to other various assumption about the other side of the argument to vilify the other side
follow your own words, for once and be nice



the big majority of people who voice their concerns and issues with the game do so in a completely civil and constructive ways and the same crap happens, and yes, some of the people are or have been game devs and yet, people are still attacking them because to some people SE can do no wrong

and stop with this "you need to be qualified in X to be able to judge Y" fanboy/girl crap, it's never been an actual argument
not for art, not for music, not for game design, not for anything

Because the toxicity is not just limited to this thread, but is evident across several threads. Besides, as per my initial point, it is not what you say but how you say it. Another instance where this seemingly eludes many people.

In case it wasn't abundantly clear I am using irony to make my point. The very fact you construe my words as being rude is just first-hand demonstration of "it is not what you say but how you say it". It's equally as ironic that you would construe my attitude as being rude and mean, yet in the self-same vein to not denounce the players accusing developers of being lazy, incompetent, or throwing around baseless accusations such as them not playing the game. Or equally making the statement they should be fired.

Again, the content of toxicity isn't just exclusive to this very thread, but is rather evident in several threads. Would it make you feel better that I go on a 'tirade' in those threads, denouncing the behaviour as opposed to highlighting a clear issue in this very thread, of which the topic is ill-constructed feedback with arguably malicious intent.

If you are going to make bold statements that the developers don't know what they're doing, or more importantly that they are lazy and incompetent, then you ought to have the words to actually back up this statement and the qualifications to stand by your own very point. It's disingenuous to attack the work ethic and ability or proficiency of people in a field that you know naught about. Just take a look at the myriad of people and threads in the past bashing the servers and those that manage them, whilst trying to make the grandiose statements that their excuses and reasoning is "a load of crap and that they simply don't care and are too lazy to bother upgrading their own server hardware" - and you want to try and convince me that credentials are not a valid argument when trying to make factual statements such as this? Sorry, but no. - It most definitely is a valid argument.

Criticism is one thing when it is directed towards the content itself and whilst it is constructive. Criticism when it is not constructive and used as an opportunity to be rude is entirely different. Besides you having criticisms for the game or anyone for that matter does not mean that other people, or myself for that matter are obligated to roll over for your criticisms. This is just creating a debate. Me disagreeing with a criticism (or anyone for that matter), wherein their only retort is essentially "YOU HURT MY FEELINGS", or "NO IT'S OK".. These statements are not ok. But a disagreement where logical arguments are presented is ok. Once again, you having a criticism of the game does not mean that people are obligated to agree with it.

If developers have not followed your highlighted complaints then it is a matter of their approach and design philosophy quite clearly differing from your own. At which point you argue whether their design philosophy is entirely healthy for the game, including those playing at high-level. Not just calling them lazy. The irony that you should make the statement that people disagreeing with your criticisms constitutes as an attack whilst, (once again) seemingly thinking it's ok to go ahead and make inferences about people being lazy. The reality of the situation is this statement is just vilifying one side of the crowd, whilst exhibiting the self-same behaviour yourself.

It's a desperation move aimed at discrediting someone's criticism. It's a fallacy called "Appeal to accomplishment" and it's a type of logical fallacy, so their argument is immediately considered invalid.

The point I made was largely in reference to the people that are under the belief the hardware they can simply purchase kit on Newegg or just make the seamless migration over to the cloud. Arguably the point is more on the basis of peoples' understanding of the logistics of a certain job/task more than anything else. But whilst we're on the sentimental approach of using murky fallacies - Have one of your own, argumentum ad logicam. The point of the argument being made is that making a conclusion of a person in a field that you yourself have zero understanding with respect to the nuances is a bad faith stance. Which is an entirely correct conclusion.

[Caurcas]

That's a lot of words defending laziness.

[IdowhatIwant]

It's also worth bearing in mind that none of us here have actually been in the CB3 offices or are privy to the design decision priorities of SE.
Bob might be most capable, energetic coder ever. He might truly work his butt off at what he does, cramming away for 12 hour days. But if he's assigned to work on something that isn't Exactly.What.The.Players.Want. then he gets slammed for being lazy. What comes out of the SE offices and into the final game has pretty much nothing to do with the individual contributions of individual staff members, even if they are senior level staff.

I don't think anyone has called out a single dev like poor Bob in the example here. I believe the comment was directed towards the team seeing how I am the one who made it. Is what is happening here is people are trying to turn the statement into something it is not. The statement that "I believe the dev team has been lazy and has produced lazy content in my opinion", has some how been escalated into slander against an individual, racist, and even an agenda pushing comment. Nothing anyone has said so far in this thread has insinuated any of the things that are being claimed here. It is absolutely insane that people have escalated the word lazy to this degree just to defend the devs. What is going on with this is now far beyond my original statement and I no longer want any a part of as this as it is actually getting to an offensive level to me being a minority. I think people should be ashamed of themselves for turning such a minor comment into this. This is another example of people becoming exactly what they claim to be against.

Those of you that have addressed what was said in an intellectual and mature way I appreciate that.

[Semirhage]

What is it with people struggling to grasp the notion; "It is not what you say but how you say it" - You don't need to outright be offensive or rude. Simply stating, or trying to push the agenda that the developers are lazy, particularly from people who aren't even remotely qualified to do the self-same job, or of equal proportion is almost absurdly laughable. #

I need only practically look at the myriad of threads on this forum to see a clear and noticeable portion of people using it as an opportunity to be either rude and disrespectful towards people that more than likely work harder than the absolute vast majority of people on this forum. Take for example telling a developer or making the statement that they should be fired simply because their design philosophy doesn't align with your own. - What you and many people need to realise is that there is a distinction between criticising the content and the design of aforementioned content, and then criticising the developers themselves as a result. I've seen a fair few cases where people have taken less time criticising the content and how it can be improved, and more time trying to spurt out nonsensical and counterproductive remarks.

You can construe the behaviour as you wish. If someone acting like a fairly decent human being constitutes as fake positivity or passive-aggressive then by all means... Personally I'd rather not have a decrepit moral compass.

Yeah, my post pointed out that the FFXIV community flings themselves exaggeratedly at their fainting couches when someone dares to take any kind of "tone" that isn't perfectly cheery, and I get this rant about "decrepit moral compasses".

I have no idea where I got this idea that the XIV community has a problem with toxic positivity and drama queening.

Yeah, I disagree with the devs' design philosophy on healers. They seem to believe spending 80%+ of an encounter casting one spell over and over and over again is "fun". I think someone would have to either A) not play the role in any real capacity at all, and/or B) not care about the role beyond unlocking it and making sure it's barebones capable of clearing content and nothing more.

I think that position is eminently justifiable, and if it hurts someone's feewings that I think it takes a lack of care or attention to hold that design philosophy, then all I can say is that, respectfully, your bar for hurt feelings is concerningly low.

[Kaurhz]

snip.

You wouldn't get these tones, nor the argument in the first place if the vast majority of people weren't using "toxic positivity", "Passive-aggressive", or "White Knight" so willy-nilly to the point that it actually starting to detract from their original defined meaning, wherein the many cases of their use are just poor attempts at trying to shut down a disagreement with their own argument or points.

See:

Yeah, I disagree with the devs' design philosophy on healers. They seem to believe spending 80%+ of an encounter casting one spell over and over and over again is "fun". I think someone would have to either A) not play the role in any real capacity at all, and/or B) not care about the role beyond unlocking it and making sure it's barebones capable of clearing content and nothing more.

It is entirely a relevant, valid and fairly constructive criticism to make. Healers are largely fairly stale jobs, but then the only concern surrounding this is.. How would you then design the system that allows for the leeway on people making mistakes and then having to interrupt your own rotation and sacrifice your own DPS as a result of other peoples' mistakes? The way I view this conundrum is that once you've learned the encounter, you're presented with oversimplification (which yes they are notorious for doing - Especially taking the opposite end of the spectrum for crafting), and then when you're learning or when groups are vastly less talented and prone to making mistakes, then, well that's where I personally would see issues coming into play. I think the only thing that would really need to be taken into consideration here is those designing the jobs are not necessarily the same people testing, and the very people testing the jobs arguably might not have the same proficiency as you do, or many of the people playing at a semi-competent level. Or arguably their design and testing methodology and philosophy might not take these things into account, where as per your second point inferring, may only be testing for barebone functionality and usability. <- Also a constructive argument to be made about their design philosophy.

Which the above paragraph and your own both deviates both from "Lul devs lazeee", and "Lul just get over it"

You're right that position is eminently justifiable and a sound argument. What is not a sound argument is this whole shtick that many people have with the 2 above mentioned points of going for the developers as opposed to their design, or their philosophy of the job, or the communication with their community, such as forum panels for each role wherein people can ask questions and answers, probing the developers precisely for their philosophy. Again, I don't denounce criticisms such as this. I denounce criticisms wherein the only concern is a derogatory slugfest, or mountains of counterproductive remarks.

Respectfully, not everyone is as inclined as you to present their criticism without throwing a fit. That is the point.