*Spoilers* The Past and After the Endwalker MSQ End

[Veloran]

I'm fairly certain that in one of the conversations leading up to Elpis that is is stated that Fandaniel/Hermes was the person who discovered that the Final days phenomena was occurring where the celestial aether currents were weakest therefore, even if he missed the mark on the true cause, he was still the one to discover the relationship between weak aether fields and the final days manifesting.

But Hermes uncovering that relation would no longer be relevant given that Venat was made privy to that selfsame connection. It's an informational paradox but the timeline is full of that now.

[Lyth]

I'm fairly certain that in one of the conversations leading up to Elpis that is is stated that Fandaniel/Hermes was the person who discovered that the Final days phenomena was occurring where the celestial aether currents were weakest therefore, even if he missed the mark on the true cause, he was still the one to discover the relationship between weak aether fields and the final days manifesting.

You're right. In 'Hope Upon a Flower,' Elidibus tells you that Fandaniel discovered this, and that he subsequently dedicated the rest of his days to devising a countermeasure.

[LystAP]

Issues remain, the door to Elpis limits us to a very specific period of time, and you’d still have the issues I mentioned if you don’t attempt to replicate those magicks.

What issues? There's no indication that we are currently being inhibited to travel back to that time. And that specific period of time should be enough to interact with the necessary people to make a impact. What matters is that it is before the Final Days.

Exactly how effective the echo is with finding specific memories is difficult to say. Ultimately, the problem is that even if you convince them, you still have Hermes sabotage to deal with, and given he isn’t there to help with Zodiark now, it’s unlikely you’ll succeed at forestalling the first final days. It was SE who wrote that limitation.

The Ancients have more precise control over the Echo than the WoL. It's why Venat had you mount Argos and travel to that floating island. She was able to bring up the exact time that Hermes sent off the Meteia. As noted earlier in this thread, we have the answer that Hermes was looking for in our memories. With that answer, Hermes would have no reason to sabotage the plan, and work towards saving the star. It was a answer that Meteion accepted, and Hermes would see that. If for some weird reason he isn't convinced, the Convocation would still have the idea of Zodiark from you, as well as the mechanics behind it.

And yet we are shown why we should believe her judgement the correct one, if their reaction to the Final Days is indicative.

It's unknown what exactly Venat did, but it doesn't seem at all she told people the truth. We are shown why she did what she did, but this was done after the Final Days, and when there is a possibility that Zodiark tempered part of the populace.

But more importantly, Venat still didn't tell them even after Zodiark was created and the Final Days halted. At that point if Hermes had been crucial to their prior success, it had already been achieved and he had outlived his usefulness. At that point there is no excuse not to reveal the truth.

It's rather weird that Venat didn't reveal the truth to the Convocation AFTER the Final Days were averted.

[EaraGrace]

But Hermes uncovering that relation would no longer be relevant given that Venat was made privy to that selfsame connection. It's an informational paradox but the timeline is full of that now.

The Watcher states that the knowledge of celestial aether currents is known only to a few scholars, much like Dynamis. Hermes was the one to conclude that the Final Days effected areas with stagnant and weak aether first. The Watcher says this is and his other contributions were “invaluable”, the exact word Venat used to describe Hermes, at the time, potential contribution.

Elidibus agrees, explaining that his work didn’t end there:

Having shed light upon the phenomenon, he dedicated himself to devising a countermeasure. We’re it not for his knowledge of the celestial, we would never have made the connection - and thence forestalled the Final Days.

This states there was more to his role than simply recognizing the connection, he actively worked on the issue, using his “invaluable” knowledge to create a solution. To deny the Convocation of that, even if they knew what the problem was on a simplistic basis, is such a misguided move that I can’t believe we’re still arguing over it. No one but Hermes and Venat knew of the celestial currents and their connection to the Final Days. No one but Hermes had that knowledge with a deep understanding of the nature of those selfsame currents to actively utilize them for a solution. This is fact.

What issues? There's no indication that we are currently being inhibited to travel back to that time. And that specific period of time should be enough to interact with the necessary people to make a impact. What matters is that it is before the Final Days.

That’s an assertion without evidence. Venat clearly explains the issues with what you’re proposing.

The Ancients have more precise control over the Echo than the WoL. It's why Venat had you mount Argos and travel to that floating island. She was able to bring up the exact time that Hermes sent off the Meteia. As noted earlier in this thread, we have the answer that Hermes was looking for in our memories. With that answer, Hermes would have no reason to sabotage the plan, and work towards saving the star. It was a answer that Meteion accepted, and Hermes would see that. If for some weird reason he isn't convinced, the Convocation would still have the idea of Zodiark from you, as well as the mechanics behind it.

Im not sure the WoL has a deep understanding of the nuances of celestial aether, how to summon a primal as powerful as Zodiark, and form Him correctly.

]It's unknown what exactly Venat did, but it doesn't seem at all she told people the truth. We are shown why she did what she did, but this was done after the Final Days, and when there is a possibility that Zodiark tempered part of the populace.

Then we’ll have to agree to disagree because we have no evidence of everything that was said.

It's rather weird that Venat didn't reveal the truth to the Convocation AFTER the Final Days were averted.

Hermes was still kicking and wouldn’t react well. Then there’s the issue of the Concoation being slightly tempered, the populace in the throes of despair and the world ravaged. Telling them that a being beyond the stars is coming for them, and that all known life in the universe is dead except for them would not have gone well.

[Veloran]

The Watcher states that the knowledge of celestial aether currents is known only to a few scholars,

The very nature of that statement confirms that Hermes wasn't the only option.

We’re it not for his knowledge of the celestial, we would never have made the connection - and thence forestalled the Final Days.

Venat knew of the connection, as such Hermes was rendered redundant.

No one but Hermes had that knowledge with a deep understanding of the nature of those selfsame currents to actively utilize them for a solution.

The currents had to be stimulated in order to produce a shield of aether around the planet. Hence Zodiark's summoning and his aspect to astral - active - aether. It is not plausible that Hermes was the only person on the entire planet who could have recognized such a straightforward solution. Even less so when we consider that as of the end of Elpis Hermes' own mentor, the previous Fandaniel, was still alive and had yet to step down from the seat.

And all of this is still an utter aside to the fact that there is not even a thin veneer of rationale presented as to why Venat couldn't tell everyone after Zodiark was summoned and the Final Days halted. At that point Hermes is completely irrelevant and could be dealt with at will. Yet Venat still kept to secrecy and did not warn anyone else of the true threat intent on their destruction.

[EaraGrace]

The very nature of that statement confirms that Hermes wasn't the only option.

No, it doesn’t. Once again, Hermes was a brilliant mind, had knowledge of celestial aether currents, a wealth of experience from running Elpis and explicitly studied the subject. Interpreting “only a handful knew about the subject” and “he would be invaluable” as “he could easily be replaced” is ridiculous.

Venat knew of the connection, as such Hermes was rendered redundant.

Clearly you skipped reading my post.

The currents had to be stimulated in order to produce a shield of aether around the planet. Hence Zodiark's summoning and his aspect to astral - active - aether. It is not plausible that Hermes was the only person on the entire planet who could have recognized such a straightforward solution. Even less so when we consider that as of the end of Elpis Hermes' own mentor, the previous Fandaniel, was still alive and had yet to step down from the seat.

Let me use an example. Vaccines, in their most basic form, take a disease and use a deactivated form of it to ready the immune system for the real thing. A simple concept. Could you make a vaccine?

Or how about another. Local weather conditions are largely impacted by regular cold and warm fronts. A simple concept. Can you tell what the weather will be?

And all of this is still an utter aside to the fact that there is not even a thin veneer of rationale presented as to why Venat couldn't tell everyone after Zodiark was summoned and the Final Days halted. At that point Hermes is completely irrelevant and could be dealt with at will. Yet Venat still kept to secrecy and did not warn anyone else of the true threat intent on their destruction.

Yes a Convocation member and former head of Elpis doing everything in his power to destroy the world, with 2/3 of the worlds population stuck inside of a god he was instrumental in designing, Etheirys barely recovering from the destruction, and Amaurot divided in such a major way for the first time, is no big deal. That’s not even considering the fact that telling a tempered convocation, preparing a sacrifice of innocent life to Zodiark, is a pointless move. Their answer was clear.

Zodiark will save us.

[Veloran]

No, it doesn’t.

Yes, it does. Saying that other scholars knew means that Hermes wasn't the only option.

Let me use an example. Vaccines, in their most basic form, take a disease and use a deactivated form of it to ready the immune system for the real thing. A simple concept. Could you make a vaccine?

Or how about another. Local weather conditions are largely impacted by regular cold and warm fronts. A simple concept. Can you tell what the weather will be?

To turn these around into significantly more pertinent questions for this discussion, are Jerome Kim and Jim Cantore the only people in the world that can possibly make vaccines or predict the weather? The entire basis of your argument isn't "Well YOU couldn't do it!" it's "Well NOBODY ELSE could do it!" Do you seriously mean to tell me that Hermes was not just a brilliant mind, but also the sole singular pioneer into both Dynamis and the celestial aether currents, two completely unrelated fields of study, all while also running Elpis full time, an entirely different third disconnected realm of science?

Aside from the fact that this is clearly not believable, remember once more that Hermes' own mentor, the previous seat of Fandaniel, was yet still alive.

Yes a Convocation member and former head of Elpis doing everything in his power to destroy the world, with 2/3 of the worlds population stuck inside of a god he was instrumental in designing, Etheirys barely recovering from the destruction, and Amaurot divided in such a major way for the first time, is no big deal.

Sundering all life on the planet and the fabric of reality was a far "bigger deal" than all of that. A last resort, not something you pull out because you're afraid of upsetting others with the truth. The fact is, if it came out that Hermes had caused everything then he would be standing alone, nobody would stick up for him if he was the root cause of so much death and destruction, and he would be unable to cause anymore harm - If that is even what he would have intended to do, which Venat doesn't even concede, instead merely saying that she doesn't know for sure either way if he would be friend or foe.

That’s not even considering the fact that telling a tempered convocation, preparing a sacrifice of innocent life to Zodiark, is a pointless move. Their answer was clear.

And yet Venat DID try to talk to them, except she was lying to them in doing so by withholding the truth. This whole "tempering = had to be killed" nonsense is way past done with the revelations from Shadowbringers and Endwalker anyway, namely that Zodiark was actually Elidibus, a guy that just wanted to find a peaceful solution for each faction, and that Zodiark wasn't even capable of tempering people outright to begin with, instead only "tugging" their aether towards his astral aspect somewhat, something completely supported in ShB when Emet acts against the Zodiark cause's best interests on numerous occasions.

[Kordarion]

Yes, it does. Saying that other scholars knew means that Hermes wasn't the only option.

To turn these around into significantly more pertinent questions for this discussion, are Jerome Kim and Jim Cantore the only people in the world that can possibly make vaccines or predict the weather? The entire basis of your argument isn't "Well YOU couldn't do it!" it's "Well NOBODY ELSE could do it!"

I agree those aren't the best examples but not because of your stated reasons. It is because of the quantity of people who can do those things, there are likely thousands of people who could do either of those things but there was only a HANDFULL, as in less that a dozen people who could do what Hermes does. Sure you could find someone else but when you have an expert right there who is proven to know what to do would you take that risk and make it even worse?

Aside from the fact that this is clearly not believable, remember once more that Hermes' own mentor, the previous seat of Fandaniel, was yet still alive.

But would he be by the time Venat got to Amurot? The whole point of Emet & Hythlodaeus being at Elpis is that the former Fandaniel is about to commit ritual suicide and needs a replacement, one which he gets when Hermes returns to Amurot post-Elpis. He could have died by the time Venat reached the capitol considering that the others appear to have left before Venat or we do. Let alone the fact that we don't know if ex-Fandaniel had that knowledge, it stands to reason he might but we don't know.

Sundering all life on the planet and the fabric of reality was a far "bigger deal" than all of that. A last resort, not something you pull out because you're afraid of upsetting others with the truth.

I'm not sure if the sarcasm went over your head but triggering a nihilistic breakdown in a man who was a part of designing and making a god that than manipulate the laws of reality and causing him to fight for the end of the universe is a FAR BIGGER deal than the sundering, especially when you consider that Elidibus was out in the world and that therefore Zodiak was lacking a heart. Venat was likely afraid of Hermes pulling a Fandaniel with heartless-Zodiark as we likely described to her when explaining future events.

This whole "tempering = had to be killed" nonsense is way past done with the revelations from Shadowbringers and Endwalker

I agree the tempered do not need to be killed, however it doesn't sound like they were arguing that "tempering = had to be killed", it sounded like they were arguing that the convocation would be like, we have Zodiark and his reality bending powers to keep us safe why should we do anything else.

[Veloran]

Sure you could find someone else but when you have an expert right there who is proven to know what to do would you take that risk and make it even worse?

Because that risk should have been weighed against significantly more dire risks, namely billions of people dying before they could find countermeasures.

But would he be by the time Venat got to Amurot?

It didn't seem to me as though the trio were rushing back to Amaurot immediately after the situation with Ktisis. Even if they had done so, it appears as though the Ancients had quite a bit of ceremony when returning to the star, such that Hermes and the others would surely be present for. Fandaniel's stepping down was oncoming yes, but it didn't appear to be so urgent that Emet and Hythlodaeus couldn't loiter about Elpis for several days waiting for Hermes' answer.

Let alone the fact that we don't know if ex-Fandaniel had that knowledge, it stands to reason he might but we don't know.

It's true that we can't know with complete certainty, but this guy was Hermes' own mentor and the seat that Hermes was supposed to take up. By all rights he should be at least as qualified as Hermes, if not moreso.

I'm not sure if the sarcasm went over your head but triggering a nihilistic breakdown in a man who was a part of designing and making a god that than manipulate the laws of reality and causing him to fight for the end of the universe is a FAR BIGGER deal than the sundering, especially when you consider that Elidibus was out in the world and that therefore Zodiak was lacking a heart. Venat was likely afraid of Hermes pulling a Fandaniel with heartless-Zodiark as we likely described to her when explaining future events.

Why could she have not told them before Elidibus exited Zodiark? And no, Hermes as a lone actor is far and away of lesser import than the sundering, there is no way this one guy overpowers Venat and the Convocation all at once. Again, if he even would.

it sounded like they were arguing that the convocation would be like, we have Zodiark and his reality bending powers to keep us safe why should we do anything else.

Because Meteion was an existential threat, a sword of Damocles hanging over their heads for all time, growing more powerful by the moment. Even if their only desire was to return things to the way they were and live in peace, Meteion's existence would forever endanger that. It's in their best interests to act against her. And even if the majority of the Ancients weren't interested and didn't want anything to do with it, the fact that Venat had a faction at all proves that some people were willing to do something about it, and if everyone was given the same information they could then make an informed decision on that basis.

[LystAP]

That’s an assertion without evidence. Venat clearly explains the issues with what you’re proposing.

How is it an assertion? Venat did not explain the issues at all. She postulated, but did not say that for sure it will be. She noted that there are 'dangers', but in no way was she certain of any. The bulk of her reasoning was focused on having us fulfill our responsibilities first, while she took care of things on her end.