The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

[KariTheFox]

Imagine if we had gone up to that group of panicking people in thavnair, and said stop, you need to learn to suffer. Suffering is natural! You truly think they would have stopped to listen?

The panicking people of Thavnair, remembering the words of thier ancestors as the Final Days were happening around them:

Know this my children. There is more ugliness than beauty in this world.

To live is to suffer. To drink of calamity and drown in anguish. To toil and be tested, always and ever.

'Tis a perilous path you walk. Death lurks in the dark, and is the sole promise that awaits at journey's end.

You will tremble with terror. You will weep tears of anger and despair

But do not avert your eyes. See your life for what it is.

Then you will see how the hardships make you strong. Every doubt reforged as scales for your armor. Every agony to temper your blade.

So, yes. I think the message of "learn to live with suffering and despair, as it is a natural part of life and a constant companion" would go over quite well and help to calm the situation, since that's what actually happened.

[Veloran]

Sure is lucky they were bailed out by a godlike hero before 75+% of their people were dead and their civilization along with the entire rest of the world was reduced to a smoking ruin.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The panicking people of Thavnair, remembering the words of thier ancestors as the Final Days were happening around them:



So, yes. I think the message of "learn to live with suffering and despair, as it is a natural part of life and a constant companion" would go over quite well and help to calm the situation, since that's what actually happened.

You’re completely missing the point. This is just after they had been saved by the WoL and a dragon lmao. Not only that, but considering i believe it was the radiant that even told that lady to calm down and it was completely ignored and she turned anyways. So no, i don’t see any proof whatsoever they would have. It took a dragon showing up just to save Matsya and the baby. This is all just proving my point. They would have been nowhere were it not for the WoL, so it’s a bit of a stretch to say things like, “oh, the sundered endured it all, so much better than the ancients.” When it’s very clear they didnt.

[Cleretic]

Actually, I think that of all zones in the game, the Thavnair revisit is the one where the WoL is the least influential on the eventual positive result. All we really did was kill the Blasphemy (even then not solo), which didn't exactly do a whole lot in the short term. The real contributors to overcoming the End of Days--which is much more a psychological battle than anything--are Vrtra, Ahewann, Matsya and Estinien. And Estinien was mostly just Vrtra's moral support.

There's a good few zones and side stories where the story can essentially boil down to 'it's a good thing Superman turned up', but the Thavnair revisit is perhaps the one that has that going on the least, we're mostly just seeing Thavnair handle itself. Hell, we don't even get full credit for the baby save, that's a three to five person job depending on if you give the twins an assist credit. I think Y'shtola has more influence on the story in that stretch than we do, and her contribution is 'being blind'.

And Vrtra is hardly an external factor in Thavnair. He's a Thavnairian citizen as much as anyone else, and doesn't actually contribute by way of 'being a dragon', he contributes by way of being a trusted leader who steps up when he needs to.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Actually, I think that of all zones in the game, the Thavnair revisit is the one where the WoL is the least influential on the eventual positive result. All we really did was kill the Blasphemy (even then not solo), which didn't exactly do a whole lot in the short term. The real contributors to overcoming the End of Days--which is much more a psychological battle than anything--are Vrtra, Ahewann, Matsya and Estinien. And Estinien was mostly just Vrtra's moral support.

There's a good few zones and side stories where the story can essentially boil down to 'it's a good thing Superman turned up', but the Thavnair revisit is perhaps the one that has that going on the least, we're mostly just seeing Thavnair handle itself. Hell, we don't even get full credit for the baby save, that's a three to five person job depending on if you give the twins an assist credit. I think Y'shtola has more influence on the story in that stretch than we do, and her contribution is 'being blind'.

And Vrtra is hardly an external factor in Thavnair. He's a Thavnairian citizen as much as anyone else, and doesn't actually contribute by way of 'being a dragon', he contributes by way of being a trusted leader who steps up when he needs to.

Afaik, the baby only survived because we showed up. Afaik, Matsya only survived because we were there to hold the monsters off from the baby while Matsya ran off. Which, afaik, Matsya only survived because of Vrtra showing up. And again, we have an entire settlement and then clearly some more considering the amount of blasphemies in the sky that seem to show the majority of thavnair turned. Hell, one of them turned because a business inquiry went sour and the guy was scared of losing his job. That’s how susceptible they were.

[Theodric]

I'd also note that suffering wasn't a natural part of life in the way in which it was introduced, either. Neither the Sundering or the Final Days were natural events. They were entirely manufactured.

Which makes the opposition to Venat even more justified - nobody is obligated to just go along with it whenever some delusional saboteur decides to alter the very conditions of existence in a way that is detrimental. How convenient, too, that Venat never had to actually abide by the rules that she set forth for everybody else.

[Lyth]

That's truly a bizarre interpretation. Suffering is an emotional state that occurs in response to pain. It's internal, not external. Amaurot wasn't a society of emotionless robots.

[EaraGrace]

You’re completely missing the point.

Ok, I’m curious what the point is then?

This is just after they had been saved by the WoL and a dragon lmao.

Yes, the combination of their armed forces, Vrtra and the WoL managed to quell the original blasphemy. Had they all despaired after helplessly losing friends, family and loved ones (like the Ancients) however, that effort would be for nothing.

Not only that, but considering i believe it was the radiant that even told that lady to calm down and it was completely ignored and she turned anyways. So no, i don’t see any proof whatsoever they would have.

It is literally a scene showing them do exactly that. Just because not everyone avoided despairing does not change that fact. Given the Scions were able to contain that particular outbreak of despair, even after a man watched his son turned, their leader killed, and they found out Palaka might’ve been wiped out, I’d say they handled things with strength.

It took a dragon showing up just to save Matsya and the baby. This is all just proving my point. They would have been nowhere were it not for the WoL, so it’s a bit of a stretch to say things like, “oh, the sundered endured it all, so much better than the ancients.” When it’s very clear they didnt.

How does that prove your point? Matsya is noted to struggle with fear and despair and the baby is… well a baby! The fact they maintain hope long enough for Vrtra and Estinien to arrive is a pretty mean feat actually.

Afaik, the baby only survived because we showed up. Afaik, Matsya only survived because we were there to hold the monsters off from the baby while Matsya ran off. Which, afaik, Matsya only survived because of Vrtra showing up. And again, we have an entire settlement and then clearly some more considering the amount of blasphemies in the sky that seem to show the majority of thavnair turned. Hell, one of them turned because a business inquiry went sour and the guy was scared of losing his job. That’s how susceptible they were.

The guy was scared of losing his life’s work, leaving him, his family and his community poor and starving. And we have no way of knowing how many turned, though nothing seems to indicate it was close to a majority.

I'd also note that suffering wasn't a natural part of life in the way in which it was introduced, either. Neither the Sundering or the Final Days were natural events. They were entirely manufactured.

Which makes the opposition to Venat even more justified - nobody is obligated to just go along with it whenever some delusional saboteur decides to alter the very conditions of existence in a way that is detrimental. How convenient, too, that Venat never had to actually abide by the rules that she set forth for everybody else.

What is a natural event? Was the planet that nuked themselves an example of a natural event causing the end? Or what about Ra’La and the Plenty? Or the invasion of the Omicron? Perhaps the point is not that suffering is all natural, but that it is inevitable. Whether it’s from the inherent limitations one’s born into, like in the planet that ended up polluted or it’s from circumstances that develop later on, the point is you will suffer.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Ok, I’m curious what the point is then?



Yes, the combination of their armed forces, Vrtra and the WoL managed to quell the original blasphemy. Had they all despaired after helplessly losing friends, family and loved ones (like the Ancients) however, that effort would be for nothing.



It is literally a scene showing them do exactly that. Just because not everyone avoided despairing does not change that fact. Given the Scions were able to contain that particular outbreak of despair, even after a man watched his son turned, their leader killed, and they found out Palaka might’ve been wiped out, I’d say they handled things with strength.




How does that prove your point? Matsya is noted to struggle with fear and despair and the baby is… well a baby! The fact they maintain hope long enough for Vrtra and Estinien to arrive is a pretty mean feat actually.



The guy was scared of losing his life’s work, leaving him, his family and his community poor and starving. And we have no way of knowing how many turned, though nothing seems to indicate it was close to a majority.



What is a natural event? Was the planet that nuked themselves an example of a natural event causing the end? Or what about Ra’La and the Plenty? Or the invasion of the Omicron? Perhaps the point is not that suffering is all natural, but that it is inevitable. Whether it’s from the inherent limitations one’s born into, like in the planet that ended up polluted or it’s from circumstances that develop later on, the point is you will suffer.

Again, considering the amount of blasphemies we see, it’s pretty clear a not-insignificant amount gave in to despair. We only see 2 small settlements survive, and one of them only had a few survivors remaining. The Ancients didn’t despair or give in like the sundered did, they let their hope give rise to Zodiark. My point is, as i’ve stated numerous times now had you actually read my posts, is that without the WoL or Vrtra both places we see the final days hit would be entirely doomed. Their survival depended on 1-2 people, one of which is unsundered and the other is 9/14th. The sundered didn’t do it on their own, they had help from higher up entities.

[Theodric]

That's truly a bizarre interpretation. Suffering is an emotional state that occurs in response to pain. It's internal, not external. Amaurot wasn't a society of emotionless robots.

I'm not sure how it would qualify as 'bizarre'. Perhaps you could read my post again? I specifically stated:

I'd also note that suffering wasn't a natural part of life in the way in which it was introduced, either.

I didn't suggest that the Ancients were a society of emotionless robots, either - so I'm not sure where that claim is coming from.

People aren't obligated to just go along with whatever tragedy subversive societal elements decide to inflict upon everybody else, especially if they're in a position to mitigate said event.