The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

[Lauront]

I think that was the royal "we". As in, the "we" of those in-universe. I agree that the notion of predestination undermines many of the themes presented throughout the game, and that setup has about as many issues and implications for the story as we've seen as that of a multiverse/many-worlds interpretation of time.

Yep, give it a few expansions and we'll be fighting the Arbiters of Fate or something similar. Maybe they can borrow some ideas from 7R for it.

Determinism itself as an idea is often rooted in the notion that it is impossible based on physical (and any other derived) laws to explain something like free will in humans (or any other living being.) That, along with consciousness, remain as exceedingly thorny philosophical issues because of that constraint. XIV on the other hand has immaterial souls, about which we know very little, beyond that they have an aetheric composition and perhaps some other irreducible aspects, to which dynamis might relate, so it's easier to introduce free will as a concept - on the other hand, it is also that much easier to introduce some thing that rigidly ensures certain outcomes for whatever purpose. But with that all said, if anything our universe is the readier candidate for deterministic explanations than a setting with rather elusive things like souls.

That preordainment from beginning to end is part of what I don't like about some of the theories hinging on the timeline playing out in a specific way irrespective of what actions take place and correcting itself to ensure that outcome is arrived at. We'll see how the writers address this, if they deign to.

[EaraGrace]

Yes, it is…

Yes tell Xande and Amon, both individuals who would love to find out and exploit Meteions Song of Oblivion.

Yes, Koryu...

Where was his aspect stated? And even if so when has that stopped the Ascians before? They used Crystal Tower for the Earth Calamity and Bahamut with his Akh Morn for the Astral aspected calamity, they are nothing if not creative.

They didn’t miss it because of that, they missed it because it was not obvious to anyone but those privy to details on its nature. It was Graha that revealed that info, info he only knew due to being from another time. The fact that Black Rose would cause a calamity wasn’t known until it happened.

Fighting to...

And what of the Seventh Umbral Calamity, where Warriors awakened to the echo by Hydaelyn and blessed with her power fought to halt it? The only reason we know of it was because we saw it play out.

Again, we can’t know if we have stopped calamities because those events are only noteworthy because they are calamities. Black Rose won’t be in any history books, because it was stopped. Ultima didn’t go on to cause destruction, because she was stopped by Hydaelyn and the Zodiac Braves.

Who is to...

That can hardly then be considered Venats decision then can it. If Minfilia learned of things as a result of her position, things that Venat didn’t directly express or impart to her, and Minfilia acted on that info, then I fail to see how you could consider Venat to be the one making those decisions. Also, Krile served the same role in EW, yet she was no more privy to Venats thoughts than we were at the time.

Their creation...

And it backfired, Venats decision to trust in the WoD worked, until Ardbert accidentally tempered Mitron. To call it incompetence is just factually false, especially as it was one of the only options left to her.

But that IS the case…

I’m sure she knew down to the exact amount how much energy a ship going to the edge of the universe would require.

Also, the fact that she didn’t also use that reservoir to save her own life, and instead relied on her dwindling aether supplies says much about unwilling she was to use that aether says something does it not?

The First could never...

This is not true. The First listed towards Light naturally, due to the fall of the 13th..

What, are you kidding?

Probably the best example of the exception proving rule, given we received two voiced cutscenes discussing that particular info dump. Still I will of course admit that she wasn’t truthful here. Much like Emet, Graha, Urianger, Minfilia, Ysayle, and Estinien we’re also not truthful with us on at least one occasion. Do you take them at their word?

[Lyth]

...

No. I'm simply illustrating how your explanation hinges on events (i.e. G'raha's alteration to the timeline, our return to Elpis) as having always been destined to have happened, irrespective of any conscious choices made by the characters. Which is certainly possible, but I wanted to be sure that this was actually the philosophical stance that you were taking. I'm simply observing your starting premises. There's no need to worry about getting pulled into a Wikipedia-sourced internet debate on causality to defend your claims. It is possible to explain the timeline without events being fated to occur, but it requires that Venat gain her knowledge of the future only duriing the events of this expansion i.e. it's not 'all according to plan'.

I think it's worthwhile to attempt to piece together the bits that we have on how spacetime magic works in universe given that it's been used an awful lot in the past two expansions, it has ties to Allag and shard travel, and it at least visually appears to be similar to Azem's own signature magic. I think that there's enough detail from the in-game lore for this to be a hard magic system, and I'd like to know what the rules actually are.

[EaraGrace]

No. I'm simply illustrating how your explanation hinges on events (i.e. G'raha's alteration to the timeline, our return to Elpis) as having always been destined to have happened, irrespective of any conscious choices made by the characters. Which is certainly possible, but I wanted to be sure that this was actually the philosophical stance that you were taking. I'm simply observing your starting premises. There's no need to worry about getting pulled into a Wikipedia-sourced internet debate on causality to defend your claims. It is possible to explain the timeline without events being fated to occur, but it requires that Venat gain her knowledge of the future only duriing the events of this expansion i.e. it's not 'all according to plan'.

I think it's worthwhile to attempt to piece together the bits that we have on how spacetime magic works in universe given that it's been used an awful lot in the past two expansions, it has ties to Allag and shard travel, and it at least visually appears to be similar to Azem's own signature magic. I think that there's enough detail from the in-game lore for this to be a hard magic system, and I'd like to know what the rules actually are.

I will argue that the existence of the future doesn’t negate free will. So long as the ability to do otherwise exists and we have the choice to follow our desires, then we have free will.

[Lyth]

Of course not. The existence of the future doesn't negate free will. Nor does the ability to go back into the past and alter it. But if the logical consistency of a proposed timeline hinges on a series of events always happening in a certain way, either the explanation for the timeline is incorrect or free will doesn't exist. I happen to think free will exists. You can infer the rest.

[RyuDragnier]

Of course not. The existence of the future doesn't negate free will. Nor does the ability to go back into the past and alter it. But if the logical consistency of a proposed timeline hinges on a series of events always happening in a certain way, either the explanation for the timeline is incorrect or free will doesn't exist. I happen to think free will exists. You can infer the rest.

If the series of events has to occur in a certain way, then only those events would be predestined, nothing else. Example, the Final Days in Thavnair must always occur. However, it does not matter who falls to despair for this, just that the Final Days occur. That means in any infinite number of variations of random villagers who transform, it won't matter who actually does, the event itself is what sets in motion that which leads to the WoL going to the First and then to Elpis. Matsya could have transformed and been killed by us, and it wouldn't have changed that we would have ended up going to the First and Elpis.

[Veloran]

Yes tell Xande and Amon, both individuals who would love to find out and exploit Meteions Song of Oblivion.

As I said before, such a situation could easily predate Xande and Amon. Alternatively they could simply be deposed.

Where was his aspect stated?

Did you miss the part where he was going to set the Ruby Sea ablaze, and screamed things like "YOU SHALL ALL BURN"? He was definitely not a water Calamity, not that he was one at all. And they did clearly miss it because of that, insofar as they could not discern the cause of a very widespread phenomena due to being ignorant of the nature of Light. They did recognize the thinning of the aether itself however.

And what of the Seventh Umbral Calamity, where Warriors awakened to the echo by Hydaelyn and blessed with her power fought to halt it?

Hydaelyn never told anybody to stop the Seventh Umbral Calamity. Again, we don't even know for sure if it was her awakening people's Echoes at that time. As I said before she was a non-entity in 1.0.

Black Rose won’t be in any history books, because it was stopped. Ultima didn’t go on to cause destruction, because she was stopped by Hydaelyn and the Zodiac Braves.

Black Rose will most certainly be in history books, yes, it was a big deal. And aside from the fact that Ultima was summoned by a Warrior of Light, she too was not a Calamity. Remember that the Near Eastern Zodiac Braves that appeared before a prior Calamity and those of Dalmasca are not the same groups of people.

That can hardly then be considered Venats decision then can it.

As I said, it may be Minfilia was specifically told to do it, and if not it would still have been a decision made due to melding minds with Venat. This is not similar to Krile's situation, Minfilia literally lost her body and joined physically/spiritually with Hydaelyn.

And it backfired, Venats decision to trust in the WoD worked, until Ardbert accidentally tempered Mitron.

It didn't backfire at all, it went exactly according to their plan and infused the First with huge amounts of Light. They didn't actually want a Flood, that was a mistake yes, but all of the WoDs getting crystals to (little f) flood the world with Light was precisely what they wanted, and they couldn't have achieved their ends had Venat not played into this.

I’m sure she knew down to the exact amount how much energy a ship going to the edge of the universe would require.

She knew the distance and the ship was a construct of team bunny, her servitors. NASA knows exactly how much fuel it takes to get a rocket they designed to the moon, so yes she should have known how much it would take. This was certainly not something worth screwing the First and killing Minfilia over, if she needs more energy later she can just take more, not to mention all the power she was saving for her Primal form which was only used for a backup backup backup plan to commit suicide-by-WoL.

This is not true. The First listed towards Light naturally, due to the fall of the 13th..

That doesn't make it primed for a rejoining, that was only accomplished through Venat and the Crystals of Light. Not to mention she gave WoL SIX at the same time, to the point even Elidibus is like "Zodidamn this is WAY too much Light, I've got to get rid of you before this pops off or everything is going to get wrecked."

Still I will of course admit that she wasn’t truthful here. Much like Emet, Graha, Urianger, Minfilia, Ysayle, and Estinien we’re also not truthful with us on at least one occasion. Do you take them at their word?

There's a difference between "being untruthful" and "killing one of your friends for the purposes of feeding you a pure propaganda lie while framing it as the absolute truth of the world".

[Kordarion]

Hydaelyn never told anybody to stop the Seventh Umbral Calamity. Again, we don't even know for sure if it was her awakening people's Echoes at that time. As I said before she was a non-entity in 1.0.

I am genuinely curious as to exactly how much of 1.0 is still cannon. After all the ascians have been retconned, what the void is has been retconned, how tempering works in general appears to have been retconned, what the calamaties represent had been retconned, how long the primals have been in Eorzea appears to have been retconned and the Songstress, I think her name was, appears to be retconned in to Hydaelyn, not to mention much of the 1.0 version of the Echo seems to have been abandoned alongside Gelmora and the mystery of Silvertear lake.

Keep in mind I never played 1.0 so all of my knowledge is from the FF wiki pages on 1.0 or from what I've heard on the forums.

Edit: You mentioned the 7th calamity being umbrally aspected, where did you hear/see that? It looks like it would be fire aspected to me, what with the giant fireball Bahamut creates and flaming debris destroying everything. It's possible I've simply missed something but it does seem strange to me.

Also there would now have to be more than one calamity of several of the elements seeing as with umbral and astral included their are only 8 elements yet 13 shards that would need to rejoined for the ascians to bring back Zodiark, therefore a few of the elements would have to have multiple calamities each for that to happen.

[Jandor]

A lot of older 1.0 information is framed as people at the time not having the info we had now.

Like the 7th calamity was assumed to be the final one because the previous 6 had been linked to each of the 6 elements, the 7th would be all of them at once aspected to Umbral and that would be that.

Same sort of deal for the void and the songstress and such, people just didn't know the real deal. The one that struggles to fit the most is the echo, can't really handwave that one away as people not knowing the truth when it's stuff they experienced first-hand.

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I do wonder where the original plot for 1.0 would have gone, I wonder if they still have rough storyboards outlining the general intentions. I'd love to see them.

[Kordarion]

A lot of older 1.0 information is framed as people at the time not having the info we had now.

Like the 7th calamity was assumed to be the final one because the previous 6 had been linked to each of the 6 elements, the 7th would be all of them at once aspected to Umbral and that would be that.

Same sort of deal for the void and the songstress and such, people just didn't know the real deal. The one that struggles to fit the most is the echo, can't really handwave that one away as people not knowing the truth when it's stuff they experienced first-hand.

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I do wonder where the original plot for 1.0 would have gone, I wonder if they still have rough storyboards outlining the general intentions. I'd love to see them.

Does that mean that Hydaelyn technically was a thing in 1.0, just that no one at the time knew the songstress was her? If so that means that she can't have been a non-factor and would have given the 1.0 Warriors Of Light the echo.