The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

[Layte_Aeon]

I think you're misunderstanding me. How does Hydaelyn, a being with a body, travel between shards to uber people's souls around? When Minfilia took the WoDs to the First, none among the group had bodies. They all gave up their flesh to come to the Source to.

Hydaelyn was constructed in a similar manner to Zodiark right? With a particular individual acting as an aetherial core. It would be possible for Venat to disconnect from Hydaelyn to move through the shards lifestreams.

I can also definitely see why she wouldn’t be so eager to do this, imagine if an Ascian had taken the risk to see Venat do this and just, steal Hydaelyn.

[Veloran]

Gosh, I didn't realize that I had posted in the Fishing sub-forum.

How does Elidibus, as the Warrior of Light, bring heroes from other shards into the First?

He's not actually summoning them, it's a BS half-summoning that creates thin simulacra. I thought he mentioned this at the time.

Likewise, we have evidence to support the fact that Venat can use Azem's signature ability herself, based on the information provided in 'The Word of the Mother', as I talked about in my earlier post. Which makes sense as well, because she was Azem.

How would a summoning spell take the user from one shard to another? ...Come to think of it if Azem's spell can bring people across the Rift, and Emet knows it (as we clearly see him use it), why does he insist such magic would be impossible, even for him?

Now the one wrench in all this is our trip to the 13th. As far as I can recall, everyone involved was able to make that journey with their bodies intact. So I can't tell what the rule actually is, or if this is just an inconsistency from before they formalized shard travel.

With the 13th we were dealing with an actual rip in the interdimensional fabric and a bridge created by the Allagan's magic. Which again kind of makes one question why Emet was so incredulous that nothing within the tower could have helped the Exarch cross worlds, since the Allagans did actually do that, at the top of the tower no less.

[Rannie]

Wasn't Elidibus just using the same spell that G'raha created to bring the WoL to the first and it was only weaker due to how many he was calling at the time? Also I only remember that he mentions before he sends us back to Elpis that he would kinda use the same ability but we would be even less tangible due to how far back we are going and how our aether was? I could remember that portion incorrectly though.

[Rulakir]

I dislike the writing around Venat to an extreme degree. It's screwed up on every level.

I can't help but think Venat/Hydaelyn were subject to gratuitous rewrites between ShB and EW. The inconsistencies are simply too numerous for this to have been their plan all along.

Much like how certain posters make it painfully obvious that they loathe the Ancients, Ascians and/or Garleans.

Even in threads that have nothing to do with them, which is the weird part.

[Kordarion]

I can't help but think Venat/Hydaelyn were subject to gratuitous rewrites between ShB and EW. The inconsistencies are simply too numerous for this to have been their plan all along.

Or perhaps its as simple as having both expansions being presented from a different point of view. Shadowbringers was in many ways the expansion that allowed for Emet-Selch and by extension the ascians to provide their side of the story, their belief around what happened, same as Endwalker is Venat/Hydaelyn's turn to speak her truth of events. Neither Emet-Selch or Venat are, realistically speaking, reliable narrators as both have their own agendas and goals that they want to see happen. The closest thing to we get to a reliable narrator in Shadowbringers is in the Amanesis Anyder cutscenes, and even then they come from Emet-Selch's daydream of Amourot. The first time we got any concrete proof of what ancient society was like was in Elpis where we actually interacted with their society in its true state.

If that explanation doesn't suffice for you I have another idea of why the portrayals are different, there are multiple mentions in Endwalker about a confluence of our present time and the ancient world's time, what if the stable time loop we are in wasn't as perfect as originally planned? When we first speak with Hydaelyn after completing the Aitiascope it sounds as if she had never met us in person before then, despite us having met her in Elpis. At the end of Elpis Venat also mentions the possibility of our actions having created an alternate timeline that could fuse back into our own. Therefore it could be possible that the Venat we see in Shadowbringers is a Venat that never encountered us in Elpis and as such lacked knowledge of the future, it can also explain how Elidibus isn't sure he saw us in the past, he could be confused because he has memories of both timelines due to the new one being made but not yet re-joined.

And Meteion could still have ended up becoming the Endsinger because she still would have received the report from her sister regardless of our involvement and still run off to hide from Hermes where the knowledge she gained would still drive her to desire the end of all life.

Even in threads that have nothing to do with them, which is the weird part.

The pot calling the kettle black, both sides are guilty of bringing it up in places where it is not relevant and going tit for tat in who loathes who isn't good for a healthy conversation but from what I have seen in the last few days it is the 'we loathe Venat' group who starts a lot of these revolving door arguments by being the first to voice their complaints. You and Veloran are prime examples of this.

[Rannie]

Or perhaps its as simple as having both expansions being presented from a different point of view. Shadowbringers was in many ways the expansion that allowed for Emet-Selch and by extension the ascians to provide their side of the story, their belief around what happened, same as Endwalker is Venat/Hydaelyn's turn to speak her truth of events. Neither Emet-Selch or Venat are, realistically speaking, reliable narrators as both have their own agendas and goals that they want to see happen. The closest thing to we get to a reliable narrator in Shadowbringers is in the Amanesis Anyder cutscenes, and even then they come from Emet-Selch's daydream of Amourot. The first time we got any concrete proof of what ancient society was like was in Elpis where we actually interacted with their society in its true state.

If that explanation doesn't suffice for you I have another idea of why the portrayals are different, there are multiple mentions in Endwalker about a confluence of our present time and the ancient world's time, what if the stable time loop we are in wasn't as perfect as originally planned? When we first speak with Hydaelyn after completing the Aitiascope it sounds as if she had never met us in person before then, despite us having met her in Elpis. At the end of Elpis Venat also mentions the possibility of our actions having created an alternate timeline that could fuse back into our own. Therefore it could be possible that the Venat we see in Shadowbringers is a Venat that never encountered us in Elpis and as such lacked knowledge of the future, it can also explain how Elidibus isn't sure he saw us in the past, he could be confused because he has memories of both timelines due to the new one being made but not yet re-joined.

And Meteion could still have ended up becoming the Endsinger because she still would have received the report from her sister regardless of our involvement and still run off to hide from Hermes where the knowledge she gained would still drive her to desire the end of all life.



The pot calling the kettle black, both sides are guilty of bringing it up in places where it is not relevant and going tit for tat in who loathes who isn't good for a healthy conversation but from what I have seen in the last few days it is the 'we loathe Venat' group who starts a lot of these revolving door arguments by being the first to voice their complaints. You and Veloran are prime examples of this.

Anamnesis Anyder are actual ruins left over on the first from the Unsundered world just like the buildings the Ondo live in in the tempest. The description for the dungeon itself even states they are "Deep in the Tempest-deeper still than the phantom Amaurot of Emet-Selch's design- lies what remains of Anyder's ancient edifices. It is an unexplored corner of this bed of knowledge that the Scions now travel, in hopes that what has long slumbers forgotten may be brought to the surface once more."

It's the truth but it is missing pieces due to it being sundered as well.

[Kordarion]

Anamnesis Anyder are actual ruins left over on the first from the Unsundered world just like the buildings the Ondo live in in the tempest. The description for the dungeon itself even states they are "Deep in the Tempest-deeper still than the phantom Amaurot of Emet-Selch's design- lies what remains of Anyder's ancient edifices. It is an unexplored corner of this bed of knowledge that the Scions now travel, in hopes that what has long slumbers forgotten may be brought to the surface once more."

It's the truth but it is missing pieces due to it being sundered as well.

Ah, I didn't know that, thanks for letting me know, it certainly does reinforce my point then that it is the only piece of unbiased ancient knowledge pre-Elpis.

[Lauront]

He's not actually summoning them, it's a BS half-summoning that creates thin simulacra. I thought he mentioned this at the time.

Yup. He is essentially drawing upon that part of their aether where zeal burns most brightly in the moment before battle, and then bidding it to "destroy darkness". That fuels his primal batteries.

I can't help but think Venat/Hydaelyn were subject to gratuitous rewrites between ShB and EW.

Or possibly within EW.

[CKNovel]

I can't help but think Venat/Hydaelyn were subject to gratuitous rewrites between ShB and EW. The inconsistencies are simply too numerous for this to have been their plan all along.

Zodiark and Hydaelynn had many rewriting.
The crystal of darkness we saw in ARR MSQ is completely erased from the story.
I'm sure Hydaelynn was supposed to be the crystal, they just decided to reconsider her form because being a glowing rock isn't great.

The whole "return to the past" + "memory wipe" is a great way to do anything you want to the story.
I feel like it was initially planned to be "reliving a memory of Azem" rather than a straight up travel into the past. The memory being tied to the soul was often brought up but never exploited except for one cutscene.

I also feel like Meteion was added just to give a face to the Evil, the cry coming out from the star was completely ignored or may still need to be resolved (The giant serpent theories and all). Fighting a natural cause was probably less epic than fighting a big bad.

So yes, unlike ShB I can't help to also feel that EW got so many rewrites here and there during development time.

[Cleretic]

That purple crystal does get a little cameo, it or at least a similarly-colored big crystal is under the Zodiark arena. It was definitely a relic of when they didn't really know what they were doing with the Ascians yet (or even if they were ever doing anything else with the game, period), though. There was a recent bit with Radio Eorzea where Yoshi-P mentioned that; apparently the story bible Thancred's VA got given early on had something completely different, because they only figured out the angle on the Ascians much later. Likely, the same reason Emmerololth has a weird morality status.

And that's not necessarily a problem. Very few stories start and finish being written with the exact same plan persisting, because sometimes you'll just find out you have a better idea. Ideally you'll want to cover your tracks on that in later drafts, but if you're writing a serialized story of some kind, you just need to accept it to some degree. (The JoJo's Bizarre Adventure fandom has an 'Araki forgot' meme about all the plot threads the author sets up and drops, that should more accurately be 'Araki Follows the Fun' because he readily admits to doing exactly this, and the series is better for it.)

In fact, while I agree that Elpis was probably where that was centered, I completely disagree about why and how. Because the developers have never spoken about Venat and Hydaelyn in a way that suggests much changed especially late, but they have directly said that Emet-Selch's popularity blindsided them. I very much doubt Endwalker was being written in full at that time, but it was definitely being planned out, and I suspect that the feeling of 'we need to bring back Emet-Selch, he's a hit' was what elevated a shorter 'find the truth in the Ancients' time' segment (maybe an extended solo duty or a dungeon) into a whole zone, which then gave the intended focuses of that segment (Hermes, Venat, and Meteion) some more room to stretch and be fuller characters as well. And I doubt anyone here would say that Elpis was worse because they wrote Emet-Selch into it.

...I'd say I enjoyed it less because of him, but that's different.

Anamnesis Anyder are actual ruins left over on the first from the Unsundered world just like the buildings the Ondo live in in the tempest. The description for the dungeon itself even states they are "Deep in the Tempest-deeper still than the phantom Amaurot of Emet-Selch's design- lies what remains of Anyder's ancient edifices. It is an unexplored corner of this bed of knowledge that the Scions now travel, in hopes that what has long slumbers forgotten may be brought to the surface once more."

It's the truth but it is missing pieces due to it being sundered as well.

I still think it's weird how that recording shows the ethereal Amaurot shades. Again, possibly a rewrites thing--they maybe didn't know they'd be giving the Ancients faces yet--and works to maintain their mystery, but it does mean that apparently Amaurot is just fine with seeing each other as weird ghosts all the time; Emet-Selch and Elidibus' memories could've faded over time, shades made in creation magic might have a reason for that form, and ghosts might just look like that, but the only way I can imagine it also persists to the Anamnesis recording is because the Ancients just want to record like that.