Thread: The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

Originally Posted by Denishia

I think where the subjective opinions on the Unsundered, at least where I know I am differing, in that I found the presentation of the Ancient to fail at showing them as objective superiors of the sundered - their lifestyle may have had material comforts than the Sundered -at least for the people shown living in Amaurot and Elpis, and again my suspicions of what the rest of the planet and the other inhabitants for Etheirys remain, because it has been so vague and because the societies that have been created as echoes of theirs (Allag and Garlemald) had very high standards of living for its citizens at the expense of anyone that was not part of their privileged upper-class. Cynicism, perhaps, but I still don't trust the Ancient Society as a Utopia - and I certainly dislike their societal pressure for 'fulfil additions of creations for 'betterment of planet', nebulously defined' and then commit ritual suicide. But I compare them to ARR Alphinaud for a reason- that brand of idealistic but immature patronization, which is both sympathetic but grating and less preferable to post-development Alphinaud. There's a side-quest option with Clarion where you can tell her what you think of the Ancients- either they seem like gods or they're just like us- and I wish there was another option to compare them to ...well, the Lopporits.

Lets not open up that discussion again... it was quite the hot and overly debated topic during Shb. What I was trying to get at wasn't that they were factually superior, but that the story (in Shb at least) had to present that notion in a way where its at least debatable, otherwise there was no way anyone could sympathize with Emets argument.

But you did remind me of something! Lopporits and the Watcher. Both examples seem at the very least sapient, and at least in the case of the moon rabbits intelligent... sorta. I think? Unless they are special due to Hydaelyn powers they are examples of intelligent life mass manufactured by an Ancient.

Originally Posted by Denishia

Ritual Suicide

I'm not sure why people want this term to stick to the Ancients as if that's what it is.

It's literally showcasing that the Ancients could be physically immortal if they wanted or needed to be, but that they still don't consider themselves above what's supposed to be the natural cycle of their planet. To them, their souls are its blood. Without blood, the planet dies, and them with it. To return to the star is to ensure that the star stays alive for future generations.

It's the softest form of "death" imaginable, because they got to choose when it happened. Where it happened. How it happened. Who got to witness it. Maybe throw a party for it. With the full knowledge that they may very well stick new feet into the mud again one day, with a new face, and a strange affinity for the same favorite foods.

I basically see them as being akin to the Valar. Convocation of 14 and all that. There's just no Eru in this setting. And the timeless halls are within the planet, rather than without.

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I'm not sure why people want this term to stick to the Ancients as if that's what it is.

It's literally showcasing that the Ancients could be physically immortal if they wanted or needed to be, but that they still don't consider themselves above what's supposed to be the natural cycle of their planet. To them, their souls are its blood. Without blood, the planet dies, and them with it. To return to the star is to ensure that the star stays alive for future generations.

It's the softest form of "death" imaginable, because they got to choose when it happened. Where it happened. How it happened. Who got to witness it. Maybe throw a party for it. With the full knowledge that they may very well stick new feet into the mud again one day, with a new face, and a strange affinity for the same favorite foods.

I basically see them as being akin to the Valar. Convocation of 14 and all that. There's just no Eru in this setting. And the timeless halls are within the planet, rather than without.

The reason I, at least, refer to it as ritual suicide is because it kind of is. It is at the very least suicide, as they are stated to be choosing to end their life, so that part is for certain. And it is a ritual suicide because it is an established part of their cultural identity, as we know it is a part of their culture/society to return to the lifestream once their mortal purpose is fulfilled.

In the west ritual suicide has very negative connotations due to cults like Heaven's Gate and the one in Jamestown, Guyana with the poisoned cool-aid, but it doesn't necessarily elsewhere. Take Japan for example, where the game developers are from, during feudal Japan Samurai used to commit Seppuku, a form of ritual sacrifice, when their cultural standards dictated so. In that way I view it as being a more benevolent and self deterministic form of that as opposed to the horrific acts of ritual suicide found in more western examples.

Edit: tldr, ritual suicide is a religious and/or cultural practice and that the ancient's cultural concept of returning to the star upon completing their purpose fits the bill.

Originally Posted by Lyth

Are the Ancients truly immortal, though?

If they wanted to be, yes! <--- The keywords in what you quoted.

You listed two examples in the your post. It's considered unnatural and bad to their society, though. But look how relatively easy it is for them. Venat becomes Hydaelyn, and goes on living for 12,000 years + however many she lived prior to that in Ancient Etheirys.

Emet-selch somehow remains Unsundered, and then through dickbag means continues to live for 12,000 years + however long he lived before in Ancient Etheirys.

As far as Hesperos goes, it's more or less him saying that he found one of the ways an Ancient could become immortal. His method is even more vague than either of the ones we've seen firsthand.

As far as them talking about death in, "Euphemisms" embrace the Bacon Necktie, Lyth. It's not a euphemism. They literally don't die when their bodies do. Their souls go on living and come back in new flesh. Hell, Hades and Hythlodaeus "die" in the modern age, and are given a true chance at revival in Ultima Thule, but opt out of continuing to live.

As far as the ole Hermes denial? That's just a riverfall in Elpis, babe. He doesn't want to admit that choosing to return to the star is a good thing for society at large. New minds get to move into new positions, and have the pressure of bearing society's woes and weal. It lets them grow as people. If everyone in their society chose to continue living for however the hell long they can keep themselves going, then it'd always be the same minds taking care of everyone. The youth would grow up bridled by indolence, and the society would stagnate. I mean, look at how bad it is in our world where politicians don't live forever, but either have no term limits or life sentence terms OR prolong their agendas by raising their children into them.

Not too mention the fact that couples can go out together. You ever watched someone lose the love of their life, and then live on in shambles afterwards? It ain't pretty.

Originally Posted by Vyrerus

If they wanted to be, yes! <--- The keywords in what you quoted.

If an ancient has to become a primal, merge themselves with a mythic beast or cheat death by going to an in-between world when they should be returning to the aetherial sea to become immortal it doesn't mean they are naturally immortal. If a modern human found a way to become immortal that only affected themselves you wouldn't go around saying that all modern humans are immortal would you? To be fair whatever it is that the unsundered did to return after death could be something inherent to all ancients but as far as I am aware there is nothing that says it is.

Also you are sort of right when you say they don't die when their physical bodies do. As evident by Emet, Hythlodaeus and sundered like Livia, Ilberd, Minfillia and others when people in FF14 die they do remain themselves in the aetherial sea for a time, but evidently they don't permanently remain the same person in the aetherial sea as otherwise every character we meet would be able remember their past lives and the sundering memory loss wouldn't matter after a generation. Not to mention their are real world religions where when you die you still exist as yourself in the afterlife so that doesn't mean existence after death means you never died.

Originally Posted by Kordarion

If an ancient has to become a primal, merge themselves with a mythic beast or cheat death by going to an in-between world when they should be returning to the aetherial sea to become immortal it doesn't mean they are naturally immortal. If a modern human found a way to become immortal that only affected themselves you wouldn't go around saying that all modern humans are immortal would you? To be fair whatever it is that the unsundered did to return after death could be something inherent to all ancients but as far as I am aware there is nothing that says it is.

Also you are sort of right when you say they don't die when their physical bodies do. As evident by Emet, Hythlodaeus and sundered like Livia, Ilberd, Minfillia and others when people in FF14 die they do remain themselves in the aetherial sea for a time, but evidently they don't permanently remain the same person in the aetherial sea as otherwise every character we meet would be able remember their past lives and the sundering memory loss wouldn't matter after a generation. Not to mention their are real world religions where when you die you still exist as yourself in the afterlife so that doesn't mean existence after death means you never died.

In a scene in The Ocular in Shadowbringers, Emet outright says that his own longevity is nothing unique, and there was a time when everyone could expect to be able to live as long.

"I do not claim we Ascians are special. That is another misconception. In the beginning, everyone - everyone lived nigh for eternity. Such was the natural order of things."

Originally Posted by Lyth

Stock villain speech aside, it's a bit of a strange boast to be making in the company of a couple of other supposed 'gods'. If the Ancients are all immortal to begin with, then why is that so special? Why does that quality make him, specifically, a 'demi-god'?

The Ancients are mortal insofar as they are all flesh and blood - they might have essentially perpetual longevity, but as we see in Akadaemia Anyder, being mauled by a fish monster will still do them in. Implicitly, Hesperos is talking about ascending to a state where his power is such that he can no longer be killed.

Originally Posted by Lurina

In a scene in The Ocular in Shadowbringers, Emet outright says that his own longevity is nothing special, and there was a time when everyone could expect to be able to live as long.

"I do not claim we Ascians are special. That is another misconception. In the beginning, everyone - everyone lived nigh for eternity. Such was the natural order of things."

My point with the Emet-Selch part isn't that he lives for a long time but his ability to cheat death, where he dies but doesn't return to the life stream, doesn't appear to be a normal ancient thing. Also I take a lot of what Emet-Selch says in Shb with a pinch of salt considering the fact that he is actively trying to convince you to switch sides to join him, plus both Shb and Endwalker show Emet has a flare for the dramatic so he's possibly overstating here considering he also said they lived for an age. Two vastly different periods of time.

Edit: Not to say I think the ancients aren't long lived, that's for certain, just that Emet-Selch seems like he likes to be hyperbolic on occasion. Also in the traditional sense that's exactly, what immortality means, that you cannot be killed at all. The Oxford dictionary evens describes it as such,

the state of living or lasting forever