Thread: The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

It's because the Ascians were tempered by Zodiark. Emet-Selch admits to as much in Shadowbringers. And if you've played all of FFXIV current story you know that once a primal tempers you your choice of free will is gone. Your devoted heart and soul to the primal who tempered you. And Zodiark didn't want to talk to Hydaelin he wanted more Aether and more followers to grow stronger and sustain himself. So those he tempered of course won't go to Hydaelin for a tea party to discuss the RIGHT way to save the world. Ultimately the Aumarotians chose to sacrifice people they deemed 'lesser' than themselves in order to sustain themselves and their 'paradise' forsaking the need to better the Star and instead better themselves. Hydaelin was disgusted by their nihilistic vain glory and sundered Etheirys for the sake of addressing the problems she was dealing with. And as that cutscene shows she regretted it had come to that but stood firm in her decision and walked along with all the suffering and suffering herself in the process. I don't understand why everyone is harping on Hydaelin and defending the Aumarotians though. The Aumarotians wanted to sacrifice others for themselves while Hydaelin sacrificed herself for others. It's eerily similar to todays world where doing the right thing is 'virtue signaling' and doing the wrong thing is 'freedom'. Shake my head.

Originally Posted by GDofLevin

It's because the Ascians were tempered by Zodiark. Emet-Selch admits to as much in Shadowbringers. And if you've played all of FFXIV current story you know that once a primal tempers you your choice of free will is gone. Your devoted heart and soul to the primal who tempered you. And Zodiark didn't want to talk to Hydaelin he wanted more Aether and more followers to grow stronger and sustain himself.

Zodiark wasn't a mindless primal hungry for Aether, he was Elidibus/Themis. A person. And I think you missed the part of his backstory in 5.3 where he specifically took a form outside of his primal body to talk to Venat and her followers.

Originally Posted by GDofLevin

Ultimately the Aumarotians chose to sacrifice people they deemed 'lesser' than themselves in order to sustain themselves and their 'paradise' forsaking the need to better the Star and instead better themselves.

As we find out on Mare Lamentorum, the souls of their love ones were literally trapped inside Zodiark - the ones who gave their lives to foster the creation of the new life on the planet in the first place. While I don't think anyone would act like they were doing something heroic, it's hardly a black and white situation.

Originally Posted by Lurina

Zodiark wasn't a mindless primal hungry for Aether, he was Elidibus/Themis. A person. And I think you missed the part of his backstory in 5.3 where he specifically took a form outside of his primal body to talk to Venat and her followers.

It's possible to temper yourself if you make yourself into a primal.

With hindsight, making the guy in charge of reconciliation into the heart of Zodiark maybe wasn't the best idea, something like that is bound to make him a tad bias.

Zodiark wasn't a bad idea in itself to stall for time. The escalating sacrifices were the problem, as was the mistaken belief that life in Amaurot could simply return to the way that it used to be, as if nothing had ever happened.

'But what of the lost? Do they not deserve to live again?'
'They do. In our hearts and our souls and our memories. No one likes having to say good-bye. But it's... it's a part of life. That's what makes the time we share together so precious... You can't obsess over the mistakes of the past, or you'll lose sight of the future. Of the people still with us, who need us more than ever.'

Originally Posted by Lyth

Zodiark wasn't a bad idea in itself to stall for time. The escalating sacrifices were the problem, as was the mistaken belief that life in Amaurot could simply return to the way that it used to be, as if nothing had ever happened.

'But what of the lost? Do they not deserve to live again?'
'They do. In our hearts and our souls and our memories. No one likes having to say good-bye. But it's... it's a part of life. That's what makes the time we share together so precious... You can't obsess over the mistakes of the past, or you'll lose sight of the future. Of the people still with us, who need us more than ever.'

By escalating sacrifices, I assume you're referring to the 3rd, yes? As with the 1st and 2nd, they were explicitly necessary to ensure they did not die out. Well this 3rd sacrifice of those newly fostered lives, and the morality of it, was not something that the Ancients were united on. It was the greatest divide they'd ever experienced. Venat had followers after all, and in a society that encouraged open debate, it was very clear that while the majority favored Zodiark, the Ancients were not some suicidal hivemind. Additionally, Elidibus, according to his own dying words, withdrew himself from Zodiark for the purposes of mediating the conflict, as was his role as Emissary. There is no evidence that this 3rd sacrifice would have occurred inevitably, in fact I would argue there are implications that it may not have, if Elidibus was given more time. Clearly he wouldn't have disconnected himself if he was not open to hearing alternatives. Given that Hydaelyn sundered an incomplete Zodiark, I'm inclined to believe these overtures from him went ignored, until clarified otherwise.

Platitudes from DRK's quests ring a bit hollow to me when those of Graha's timeline similarly worked to undo all of the pain of what they experienced, and no one bats an eye at them.

Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

By escalating sacrifices, I assume you're referring to the 3rd, yes? As with the 1st and 2nd, they were explicitly necessary to ensure they did not die out. Well this 3rd sacrifice of those newly fostered lives, and the morality of it, was not something that the Ancients were united on. It was the greatest divide they'd ever experienced. Venat had followers after all, and in a society that encouraged open debate, it was very clear that while the majority favored Zodiark, the Ancients were not some suicidal hivemind. Additionally, Elidibus, according to his own dying words, withdrew himself from Zodiark for the purposes of mediating the conflict, as was his role as Emissary. There is no evidence that this 3rd sacrifice would have occurred inevitably, in fact I would argue there are implications that it may not have, if Elidibus was given more time. Clearly he wouldn't have disconnected himself if he was not open to hearing alternatives. Given that Hydaelyn sundered an incomplete Zodiark, I'm inclined to believe these overtures from him went ignored, until clarified otherwise.

Platitudes from DRK's quests ring a bit hollow to me when those of Graha's timeline similarly worked to undo all of the pain of what they experienced, and no one bats an eye at them.

I like that we’re discussing the Ancients not as a monolith, but as different factions. It’s possible Azem represents a third option to the back and forth between Venat/Zodiark.

I’m coming around to the theory that the “new life” was basically the playable races (or their progenitors). Azem may have been a supporter of the new life, (probably hung around with them and went adventuring), but maybe Azem was also anti-sundering - thus they didn’t side with either Venat or the convocation.

I still wonder if the seeds of a third option weren’t planted by Azem and their friends (think Ancient-world Scions). Maybe we’ll pick up those pieces to both save the Ancients, and also save the reflections some day. (Or at least explore the Sundering in a more nuanced way).

Originally Posted by Shookbeast

I’m coming around to the theory that the “new life” was basically the playable races (or their progenitors). Azem may have been a supporter of the new life, (probably hung around with them and went adventuring), but maybe Azem was also anti-sundering - thus they didn’t side with either Venat or the convocation.

I still wonder if the seeds of a third option weren’t planted by Azem and their friends (think Ancient-world Scions). Maybe we’ll pick up those pieces to both save the Ancients, and also save the reflections some day. (Or at least explore the Sundering in a more nuanced way).

That is honestly where I was expecting the story of Endwalker to go. Both sides so caught up in their own values and priorities, that by the time they realized what they were doing, even when people like Elidibus attempted to seek peace, Hydaelyn didn't realize, it was too late, and the Sundering occurred. But that's not how it happened. I won't lie, I genuinely feel the story's justification for the Sundering to be half-baked, and didn't explore the possibilities of something like what Azem might have done. I sincerely hope they don't play things in such a way that Azem was always working under Venat's wing to fulfill some grand design. Unfortunately with Endwalker being the end of this saga, I'm not sure we'll ever get a concrete explanation.

Maybe Pandaemonium will shed some light, though.

Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

...

The Convocation was dead set on pursuing further sacrifice and weren't interested in hearing out any alternatives. We know this from the recordings contained within Anamnesis Anyder. The dissenting faction consisted of the few supporters who rallied behind Venat. Everyone else had rallied behind Zodiark and the decision of the Convocation.

'By the summoning of Zodiark have we been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws he has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom.

Nay should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same. I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings. I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered.'

It's funny that you should mention the survivors of the Eighth Umbral Calamity. They didn't work to undo the pain that they experienced. They worked to build a better future. What happens to them after G'raha alters the timeline is discussed in Tales from the Shadows: An Unpromised Tomorrow.

'And so our journey began anew. Would that G’raha Tia could see all that we will accomplish. Though we shall remain forever on different pages of history─and different books, besides─I take comfort in knowing we strive for a future of the selfsame brightness.'

These can only considered platitudes in that they are self-evident truths. Would that the Ancients known to heed them.