Thread: The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

Originally Posted by Chyro

I wonder why seemingly none of the unsundered ever went to Hydaelin to have a talk? If we could find her in the aethereal sea as lowly sundered fragments, it should be no problem for them to reach (especially emet - hades, keeper of the underworld or how it was called).

They know that hydaelin isn't just some god or mindless primal, that she has an ascian as her core same as elidibus is for zodiark. Someone they possibly even knew or were friends with (emet and vemat seemingly had quite some familiarity with each other). In all the time since the sundering they never thought to go talk to her, hear her reasons? Or at least clarification on the more precise circumstances of the sundering? To seek a dialogue with the 4th unsundered ascian / ancient, Venat.

Probably because of her protections and knowing there's a chance she'd Sunder them right there. Sunder one of them, and they've lost. They did not want to take the chance.

Originally Posted by Chyro

I wonder why seemingly none of the unsundered ever went to Hydaelin to have a talk? If we could find her in the aethereal sea as lowly sundered fragments, it should be no problem for them to reach (especially emet - hades, keeper of the underworld or how it was called).

They know that hydaelin isn't just some god or mindless primal, that she has an ascian as her core same as elidibus is for zodiark. Someone they possibly even knew or were friends with (emet and vemat seemingly had quite some familiarity with each other). In all the time since the sundering they never thought to go talk to her, hear her reasons? Or at least clarification on the more precise circumstances of the sundering? To seek a dialogue with the 4th unsundered ascian / ancient, Venat.

To be fair, did they *know* that Hydaelyn was Venat? Lahabrea wasn't involved with Elpis, obviously, but Emet would know...Except no, he lost his memory in Elpis as well. There's no real guarantee that either of them (Or Elidibus/Zodiark) would have known exactly who she was beyond the Hydaelyn persona.

Originally Posted by Kofufu

I appreciate this thorough reply. I had a hard time putting my thoughts into words when I wrote this post, but ultimately I think what I was getting at was that I feel they didn't place enough emphasis on the Zodiark reasoning through Endwalker. Obviously Hydaelyn had no choice but to sunder Zodiark, as evidenced by her severe weakening with each Rejoining. This was needed to keep him locked up on the moon. But beyond that, it wasn't mentioned much and the focus almost exclusively went in the dynamis/suffering direction towards the end. It just felt like I was missing something but I suppose I'm thinking too much into it. Thanks!

Yeah, I think there's certainly a bit of rewriting going on as to the reasoning behind the act, I'm not denying Zodiark most definitely used to be the main cause but, as we can assume they go bit by bit in writing the stories, things change, as does our understanding of presented information.

Zodiark wasn't a bad idea in itself to stall for time. The escalating sacrifices were the problem, as was the mistaken belief that life in Amaurot could simply return to the way that it used to be, as if nothing had ever happened.

'But what of the lost? Do they not deserve to live again?'
'They do. In our hearts and our souls and our memories. No one likes having to say good-bye. But it's... it's a part of life. That's what makes the time we share together so precious... You can't obsess over the mistakes of the past, or you'll lose sight of the future. Of the people still with us, who need us more than ever.'

Originally Posted by Lyth

Zodiark wasn't a bad idea in itself to stall for time. The escalating sacrifices were the problem, as was the mistaken belief that life in Amaurot could simply return to the way that it used to be, as if nothing had ever happened.

'But what of the lost? Do they not deserve to live again?'
'They do. In our hearts and our souls and our memories. No one likes having to say good-bye. But it's... it's a part of life. That's what makes the time we share together so precious... You can't obsess over the mistakes of the past, or you'll lose sight of the future. Of the people still with us, who need us more than ever.'

By escalating sacrifices, I assume you're referring to the 3rd, yes? As with the 1st and 2nd, they were explicitly necessary to ensure they did not die out. Well this 3rd sacrifice of those newly fostered lives, and the morality of it, was not something that the Ancients were united on. It was the greatest divide they'd ever experienced. Venat had followers after all, and in a society that encouraged open debate, it was very clear that while the majority favored Zodiark, the Ancients were not some suicidal hivemind. Additionally, Elidibus, according to his own dying words, withdrew himself from Zodiark for the purposes of mediating the conflict, as was his role as Emissary. There is no evidence that this 3rd sacrifice would have occurred inevitably, in fact I would argue there are implications that it may not have, if Elidibus was given more time. Clearly he wouldn't have disconnected himself if he was not open to hearing alternatives. Given that Hydaelyn sundered an incomplete Zodiark, I'm inclined to believe these overtures from him went ignored, until clarified otherwise.

Platitudes from DRK's quests ring a bit hollow to me when those of Graha's timeline similarly worked to undo all of the pain of what they experienced, and no one bats an eye at them.

It also ignores that Venat seemed to be happy to let the Amaurotines build a wall out of lives in order to allow her to stall--lives that, as they were in Zodiark, would be completely removed from the aetherial sea forever. It's literally a fate worse than death. It's less, "accept that people die" and more "actually the Scions are perma-dead in Ultima Thule with no hope of reincarnation because they died off planet, get over it."

Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

By escalating sacrifices, I assume you're referring to the 3rd, yes? As with the 1st and 2nd, they were explicitly necessary to ensure they did not die out. Well this 3rd sacrifice of those newly fostered lives, and the morality of it, was not something that the Ancients were united on. It was the greatest divide they'd ever experienced. Venat had followers after all, and in a society that encouraged open debate, it was very clear that while the majority favored Zodiark, the Ancients were not some suicidal hivemind. Additionally, Elidibus, according to his own dying words, withdrew himself from Zodiark for the purposes of mediating the conflict, as was his role as Emissary. There is no evidence that this 3rd sacrifice would have occurred inevitably, in fact I would argue there are implications that it may not have, if Elidibus was given more time. Clearly he wouldn't have disconnected himself if he was not open to hearing alternatives. Given that Hydaelyn sundered an incomplete Zodiark, I'm inclined to believe these overtures from him went ignored, until clarified otherwise.

Platitudes from DRK's quests ring a bit hollow to me when those of Graha's timeline similarly worked to undo all of the pain of what they experienced, and no one bats an eye at them.

I like that we’re discussing the Ancients not as a monolith, but as different factions. It’s possible Azem represents a third option to the back and forth between Venat/Zodiark.

I’m coming around to the theory that the “new life” was basically the playable races (or their progenitors). Azem may have been a supporter of the new life, (probably hung around with them and went adventuring), but maybe Azem was also anti-sundering - thus they didn’t side with either Venat or the convocation.

I still wonder if the seeds of a third option weren’t planted by Azem and their friends (think Ancient-world Scions). Maybe we’ll pick up those pieces to both save the Ancients, and also save the reflections some day. (Or at least explore the Sundering in a more nuanced way).

Originally Posted by Shookbeast

I’m coming around to the theory that the “new life” was basically the playable races (or their progenitors). Azem may have been a supporter of the new life, (probably hung around with them and went adventuring), but maybe Azem was also anti-sundering - thus they didn’t side with either Venat or the convocation.

I still wonder if the seeds of a third option weren’t planted by Azem and their friends (think Ancient-world Scions). Maybe we’ll pick up those pieces to both save the Ancients, and also save the reflections some day. (Or at least explore the Sundering in a more nuanced way).

That is honestly where I was expecting the story of Endwalker to go. Both sides so caught up in their own values and priorities, that by the time they realized what they were doing, even when people like Elidibus attempted to seek peace, Hydaelyn didn't realize, it was too late, and the Sundering occurred. But that's not how it happened. I won't lie, I genuinely feel the story's justification for the Sundering to be half-baked, and didn't explore the possibilities of something like what Azem might have done. I sincerely hope they don't play things in such a way that Azem was always working under Venat's wing to fulfill some grand design. Unfortunately with Endwalker being the end of this saga, I'm not sure we'll ever get a concrete explanation.

Maybe Pandaemonium will shed some light, though.

Love how a lore question about motivations quickly devolves into the same arguments that are happening simultaneously in like 5 threads because of this beautiful, bad faith, hit and run post:

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

tl;dr:
Venat condemned her own race to extinction based on lots of supposition and the word of some dude from the future.

This is bait. Y'all fell for it.