Thread: The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

The fact that the Ancients needed to choose to death is rather strong evidence that they were, if not outright biologically immortal, at least extremely long lived. Regardless of which of these two it is, their choosing to return to the aetherial sea for dissolution is an extension of their willingness to sacrifice everything for their world and people.

As another note; Emet-Selch does mention, when questioned by Meteion as to wtf is going on, that they are half-faded souls of the dead. I would emphasize half-faded here. This makes it abundantly clear that, however powerful the Ancients might be, the aetherial sea dissolves them just as readily as it does everyone else. Emet-Selch hadn't even been dead that long, and Hythlodaeus was only recently freed from Zodiark. Livia and Rhitahtyn seem to have lasted as long as they did out of sheer spite, while all those that did not pass in hate are either reduced to mere remnants (Moenbryda and Horsefountain, for example) or on the verge of dissolution (i.e. Minfiliia).

Originally Posted by Kordarion

If an ancient has to become a primal, merge themselves with a mythic beast or cheat death by going to an in-between world when they should be returning to the aetherial sea to become immortal it doesn't mean they are naturally immortal. If a modern human found a way to become immortal that only affected themselves you wouldn't go around saying that all modern humans are immortal would you? To be fair whatever it is that the unsundered did to return after death could be something inherent to all ancients but as far as I am aware there is nothing that says it is.

Also you are sort of right when you say they don't die when their physical bodies do. As evident by Emet, Hythlodaeus and sundered like Livia, Ilberd, Minfillia and others when people in FF14 die they do remain themselves in the aetherial sea for a time, but evidently they don't permanently remain the same person in the aetherial sea as otherwise every character we meet would be able remember their past lives and the sundering memory loss wouldn't matter after a generation. Not to mention their are real world religions where when you die you still exist as yourself in the afterlife so that doesn't mean existence after death means you never died.

In a scene in The Ocular in Shadowbringers, Emet outright says that his own longevity is nothing unique, and there was a time when everyone could expect to be able to live as long.

"I do not claim we Ascians are special. That is another misconception. In the beginning, everyone - everyone lived nigh for eternity. Such was the natural order of things."

Originally Posted by Lyth

Stock villain speech aside, it's a bit of a strange boast to be making in the company of a couple of other supposed 'gods'. If the Ancients are all immortal to begin with, then why is that so special? Why does that quality make him, specifically, a 'demi-god'?

The Ancients are mortal insofar as they are all flesh and blood - they might have essentially perpetual longevity, but as we see in Akadaemia Anyder, being mauled by a fish monster will still do them in. Implicitly, Hesperos is talking about ascending to a state where his power is such that he can no longer be killed.

Originally Posted by Lurina

In a scene in The Ocular in Shadowbringers, Emet outright says that his own longevity is nothing special, and there was a time when everyone could expect to be able to live as long.

"I do not claim we Ascians are special. That is another misconception. In the beginning, everyone - everyone lived nigh for eternity. Such was the natural order of things."

My point with the Emet-Selch part isn't that he lives for a long time but his ability to cheat death, where he dies but doesn't return to the life stream, doesn't appear to be a normal ancient thing. Also I take a lot of what Emet-Selch says in Shb with a pinch of salt considering the fact that he is actively trying to convince you to switch sides to join him, plus both Shb and Endwalker show Emet has a flare for the dramatic so he's possibly overstating here considering he also said they lived for an age. Two vastly different periods of time.

Edit: Not to say I think the ancients aren't long lived, that's for certain, just that Emet-Selch seems like he likes to be hyperbolic on occasion. Also in the traditional sense that's exactly, what immortality means, that you cannot be killed at all. The Oxford dictionary evens describes it as such,

the state of living or lasting forever

If we operate on the assumption that the Sundering split everything into fourteen equal portions, that would include lifespan; given Hyur live to about 80 (assuming they don't die from war or disease or what have you) that would mean Ancients had a natural lifespan of around 1,120 years. (Let's say 1,200, since Elezen and Viera have longer lifespans that would skew things a bit.)

Much longer, not forever.

^This. I don't consider it to be a safe assumption to make, not least of all when, as you mention, one considers the differences between life forms on the Source and First - there appear to be very few besides soul density. So an equal split along those lines is not of great use when considering the ancients. I'm of the view that they probably did not live eternally, but that their lifespans probably stretched out into the thousands of years, but for now we can't say definitively.

Originally Posted by Lersayil

Could you provide citation? I might've just missed it, but the only thing I recall about intelligent creations is the overall lack of their presence in Elpis and information about them. I remember the bit about creations with souls, but I don't recall any connection drawn between having a soul and intelligence.

I believe he's referring to familiars which gain souls, which Touring Anagnorisis Part 1 confirms is unusual. I suspect they're trying to tie this in with Hades's short story, where it's also stated it is unusual for arcane entities to gain souls, and where one accidentally binds to the firebird. Given that all beings in Elpis are their creations, there must be some manner of differentiation between what the star will bestow a soul upon and what not; after all, we've just been given a glimpse into their methods and the star's workings in that regard, both then and now, remain a mystery. I think Absimiliard is not referring to intelligence alone when he mentions 'sapience', as even animals can be highly intelligent, so he probably meant it with reference to that. Virtually every NPC there remarks on how unusual you are as a familiar. Not necessarily of a kind with the ancients, but somewhere in-between the typical familiar and them, I would guess. That aligns with Y'shtola's surmisal that Emet's shades may have reacted to you as a child due to a gradual shift in his view of the sundered.

I was actually under the impression the writers were intentionally avoiding the subject (aside from Meteion), as its a very deep can of worms.

Perhaps. The entire thing is left vague, but the side-quests line up with what Absimiliard is saying. The side-quests overall are similar to the Amaurot ones and quite good for learning more on the ancients. IMO, I definitely am of the impression that creations like those in Elpis were what they were intending to sacrifice, and it would make sense of why the focus in the feud between Venat's posse and the Convocation is what would better serve the star's longevity rather than any moral discomfort with it, which her group seemed to lack, and which would've been more pronounced if it were full ancients, IMO.

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Is there really anything wrong with the Ancients viewing their creations as no higher than animals? Whether intelligent or not, those beings were given life primarily as a means of furthering the growth of Etheirys. While some (such as Meteion, being the prime example) were made with a specific purpose in mind, most were meant to spread and reproduce, such that increasing amounts of aether would be added to the world via the cycle of life and death. Even culling some of their own creations to bring back those sacrificed to Zodiark seems pretty acceptable when one considers this.

For the matter of the Ancients' own lives; they would choose to die because they felt it was their duty to return to Etheirys. It wasn't about a lack of care for themselves so much as a greater care for the whole. The immense amount of aether possessed by each Ancient meant such sacrifices were an excellent way of nourishing the world they so loved. As for the choice, what else could they do? A creature that cannot die of old age and possessed of such immense power is unlikely to meet its end through any natural means. More Ancients being born than die would both harm Etheirys by taking too much aether and harm the creatures living there through the resulting overpopulation. I would further contend that their willingness to sacrifice themselves to Zodiark stemmed not from a disregard for life but from an abiding love for it. To give up your own life so that your world, your loved ones, and people you haven't or never will meet can go on living for another day could easily be seen as the ultimate act of love for life. The fact that even more Ancients were then willing to die so that Zodiark could fix the damage done to their world - more specifically, so that it would be able to sustain the survivors - also speaks volumes.

Correct. A lot of the quests emphasise self-care and also concern for one another on their part. My view of them aligns with yours. I find them to be quite a fascinating race of beings.

Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I don't believe I would call their care vague at all. It's made pretty abundantly clear that, while they might not care about their creations the same way they would equals, many of them do care. As for intelligent life, I would note that we learn during our time in Elpis that sapient creations are extremely rare. Intelligence, sentience, and sapience are very different things, with sapience being the greatest of those considerations due to the possession of actual self-awareness. Meteion aside, their intelligent creations are not shown to be sapient although I do grant it is implied that a small minority of them probably are.

Beyond that you've got their care for one another as well as the greater whole, both of which have been made quite blatant since we first learned the true purpose of the Ascians from Emet-Selch.

I agree with these points and I think you're entirely correct in making them. Meteion was also not submitted for evaluation. Generally speaking, it appears you have pure arcane entities like sprites; arcane creations which may qualify for a soul and pass for living on the order of an animal or (sentient) plant, and some of these we'd recognise as monsters; and familiars, for which it is remarked it is unusual for them to gain a soul, and of which you are considered to be an exceptional sample. These seem to be of a kind with beings like egi, primals, and various other arcane constructs.

Originally Posted by Lyth

I wonder about that, though. Hesperos is killable. He clearly knows this, which is why he's able to do it himself.

For that matter, consider the Ea, who are explicitly stated to have developed indefinite lifespans in order to allow them to study the mysteries of the universe. Their solution to achieve this was to eliminate their corporeal bodies altogether. And even still, they were still killable, which is ultimately how their civilization ended. They were just a more advanced version of Amaurot. Once again feeding into that theme that death cannot be cheated, only forestalled. (All this strikes me as strange, though - how does one have an indefinite lifespan yet be also mortal? People don't die of old age. They die of specific causes.)

When you look at the Ascians, it doesn't sound like the methods that they had developed to prolong their lives were without costs or even something that you could do indefinitely. In 'Ere Our Curtain Falls', we see that Lahabrea's soul transferences from vessel to vessel left his soul progressively more broken, which Emet describes as like a fire consuming itself to become ash. Likewise, in merging himself with Zodiark as his heart, Elidibus' progressively loses more and more of his memories, losing himself in the process. I'm curious to find out when the concept of soul transference originated. The Phoinix that Hades faces off against in 'Through His Eyes' seems to be an early and accidental example of this, which makes me wonder if we'll see a more focused discussion of soul transference, memories, and soul crystals in the context of Pandaemonium.

Part of what makes all this difficult is that we only ever really get to see Amaurot through the lens that they choose to see themselves. I think it's better to keep an open mind at this point and see where the lore actually takes us.

It will be neat. The biggest contradictory line to Emet's claim come from his bestie Hyth when he's stressing the specifics of, "their most assuredly finite lives." To Hermes and the WoL present. I doubt we ever get a concrete number, and it will slowly fade into being one of the unanswered questions for the rest of our lives.

Just how many licks does it take to get to the center of an Ancient-Pop? One, a two, a CRUNCH...