The current State of Casters 6.05 edition - balancing discussion

[dinnertime]

Reading this thread I'm just glad this forum isn't responsible for balance changes.

Are you sure? Because I've seen a lot of changes that were asked here before that have been put into the game.

[Azuri]

I was mostly done with the topic but the recent interview with Yoshida about upcoming 6.08 changes has a very curious line.

・侍、黒、モのような忙しさに火力が割に合っていないジョブは調整する
They are looking into adjusting jobs that are too busy but doesn't reflect the DPS it should be outputting.

You've heard the man himself. In his vision, rotational complexity does play a role in DPS output.

[Aikaal]

I was mostly done with the topic but the recent interview with Yoshida about upcoming 6.08 changes has a very curious line.

・侍、黒、モのような忙しさに火力が割に合っていないジョブは調整する
They are looking into adjusting jobs that are too busy but doesn't reflect the DPS it should be outputting.

You've heard the man himself. In his vision, rotational complexity does play a role in DPS output.

He also said that about Black Mage which has the lowest cast per minute as a DPS.

You're really not getting the whole argument right?

You have ton of options to optimize on Red Mage and Black Mage because you can hold and build burst. Summoner does not have that potential. While everyone maximize their burst on P2S because theres a 9 second downtime buring a burst window, the top 10 Summoner just straight burn Bahamut without buffs because it's the best option. Reaper is busy and super easy to play for example. Summoner has no oGCD and is also easy to play. Red Mage is a damn joke to play. I can't see any difference of complexity between Red Mage and Summoner. That's purely for damage output.

For progression, Red Mage will always be better for superior res, superior support with Magick Barrier and superior healing potential in panic moment. Put 2 groups with the same skill level and have one of them have a SMN and one of them have RDM. RDM will always win. Summoner personal DPS has always been higher than Red Mage for a reason and it's because Red Mage is just more supportive. Endwalker is unbalanced in that department but you seem to believe that your job should be broken in all aspects of the game. No Summoner main want to see Red mage to be bad but Red Mage should never outdps Summoner. For this to be accepted, they'd have to gut your superior raise ability and nerf down Magick Barrier. Because Phoenix healing is restrictive and in general not taken into account because it's pure overhealing.

[Azuri]

He also said that about Black Mage which has the lowest cast per minute as a DPS.

You're really not getting the whole argument right?

You have ton of options to optimize on Red Mage and Black Mage because you can hold and build burst. Summoner does not have that potential. While everyone maximize their burst on P2S because theres a 9 second downtime buring a burst window, the top 10 Summoner just straight burn Bahamut without buffs because it's the best option. Reaper is busy and super easy to play for example. Summoner has no oGCD and is also easy to play. Red Mage is a damn joke to play. I can't see any difference of complexity between Red Mage and Summoner. That's purely for damage output.

Starting to reach for it a bit. You better pick one. Either there is "ton of options to optimize on Red Mage" or "Red Mage is a damn joke to play". Either "Summoner does not have that potential" or "I can't see any difference of complexity between Red Mage and Summoner".

I think it is pretty clear. With a simple and on rails rotation SMN has there is not a lot to be "busy" about. And by Yoshida's own words, being busier warrants higher DPS.

All the talk about support is getting old and I will no longer engage you on that topic. You remain adamant on downplaying anything SMN has and making RDM that absolute beast of support abilities with on demand heal LB3 and raidwide Hallowed Ground.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

Starting to reach for it a bit. You better pick one. Either there is "ton of options to optimize on Red Mage" or "Red Mage is a damn joke to play". Either "Summoner does not have that potential" or "I can't see any difference of complexity between Red Mage and Summoner".

I think it is pretty clear. With a simple and on rails rotation SMN has there is not a lot to be "busy" about. And by Yoshida's own words, being busier warrants higher DPS.

All the talk about support is getting old and I will no longer engage you on that topic. You remain adamant on downplaying anything SMN has and making RDM that absolute beast of support abilities with on demand heal LB3 and raidwide Hallowed Ground.

To be honest, I'm tired of seeing you in this thread trying to make an argument when AiKaal or any other smn hasnt tried to attack or ask for rdm to be nerfed in any way. I never once wanted rdm to feel useless or unwanted in parties but the way you talk on here that how it seems how you feel about smn. Seems like you want smn to not feel rewarded or have a spot in parties and be replaced by your beloved rdm. I even said I love to give up something for a buff for smn but I never asked rdm to be nerfed or anything. I want both jobs to feel wanted and feel rewarding to play. So if you dont have any actually helpful suggestions or advice to add to the smn situation, then go find a rdm only thread or something. Also if the complexity of a job determined its dps then why did they nerf smn in every expac leading up to this one? According to yours and so many others views smn should have been the number one dps in SB and ShB(maybe HW but I didn't play during then so I can't say how hard smn was then) but in those expac smn saw number of nerfs whenever the devs saw it was out-dpsing blm.

I wish they'd dump raise off the caster role entirely, give it to all three casters, add a cooldown to SMN and RDM's raise of 1 minute, or make verraise ineligible for dualcast. They've shown with Accel they can disqualify spells for specific instantcast abilities. I'm not playing Red Mage to live out my healer fantasy. If I wanted to play a healer, I have an entire role to choose from, and that role should have the neat alterations to raise like fast raise, pre-raise, strong raise, group raise, etc.

I completely agree with you on this and why I was disappointed they went back on the idea of removing smn's rez. I am at the point with casters that there never be a true balance when smn and rdm have something that blm doesn't so just remove or completely nerf the battle rez and let that be a healer only job going forward.

[IndoX]

He also said that about Black Mage which has the lowest cast per minute as a DPS.

Casts per minute and rotational complexity aren't mutually exclusive. Black mage rotation requires foresight and knowledge of fight mechanics in order to perform at it's highest level. A bad black mage plays worse than a bad red mage or summoner. Black mage has always been one of the harder dps to perform well on, having the largest variance in damage of all dps classes. Those low casts per minute only show the value how much each cast is worth and missing several is a bigger mistake compared to other casters.

[SaberMaxwell]

Ah yes, a discussion about DPS balance boiling down to restorative and mitigative tools once again. This is why I love the caster role; tools and abilities like raise that should be in the realm of healers instead are one of the hottest points of debate for a damage role.

I wish they'd dump raise off the caster role entirely, give it to all three casters, add a cooldown to SMN and RDM's raise of 1 minute, or make verraise ineligible for dualcast. They've shown with Accel they can disqualify spells for specific instantcast abilities. I'm not playing Red Mage to live out my healer fantasy. If I wanted to play a healer, I have an entire role to choose from, and that role should have the neat alterations to raise like fast raise, pre-raise, strong raise, group raise, etc.

As far as Magick Barrier vs Phoenix? Yeah, in most cases Magick Barrier is more useful. However we have so much mitigation from every role at this point in the game, with almost all of it being multiplicative, that more often than not Magick Barrier doesn't even get its full 10% of usefulness (also it is demonstrably weaker than tactician, both in duration (10s vs 15s) and effect (MB mitigates only magic, tactician mitigates all damage)). So we're comparing something with what I'd rate 4/10 for usefulness (MB) with something I'd rate 3/10 (Phoenix).

Phoenix at least comes with the caveat that, if the boss is bursting during a group burst, the healers can lean on that even if just a bit and any tank hit with Rekindle doesn't need to be bothered with for a little while; 1,400 potency of free healing on a single target, with 1,000 of that coming from a regen activated via an excog-like trigger system. There's no reason to *not* hit the tank with that every time Phoenix is up, what does overheal really matter when there's no opportunity cost? Just like with any mitigation plan, the healers can actively work their cooldowns around knowing Rekindle is going out at points.

That long ramble aside, I'll reiterate my stance as ever: nerf or remove raise from casters entirely. There's a role dedicated to people who want the healer fantasy and neither RDM nor SMN are in it.

[Dyvid]

That long ramble aside, I'll reiterate my stance as ever: nerf or remove raise from casters entirely. There's a role dedicated to people who want the healer fantasy and neither RDM nor SMN are in it.

We could just make it a role action and remove that arguement right off the table since all casters would have access to it.

[Absimiliard]

I'll reiterate my stance as ever: nerf or remove raise from casters entirely. There's a role dedicated to people who want the healer fantasy and neither RDM nor SMN are in it.

With Summoners you may have a leg to stand on given that they've been depicted without white magic more often than they've had it. Red Mage, however, has always been a hybrid, capable of casting both black and white magic and serving as an effective melee. Tearing away Raise is basically ripping out a huge chunk of the class fantasy and identity.

[SaberMaxwell]

With Summoners you may have a leg to stand on given that they've been depicted without white magic more often than they've had it. Red Mage, however, has always been a hybrid, capable of casting both black and white magic and serving as an effective melee. Tearing away Raise is basically ripping out a huge chunk of the class fantasy and identity.

But it is in this case better at raise than White Mage. At no point should it be better at white magic than a White Mage, which is why my stance is "nerf or remove."

We could just make it a role action and remove that arguement right off the table since all casters would have access to it.

I agree here, either all should have it or none should have it. In the case of RDM tho, it should still be disqualified from being dualcast, and it should be disqualified from BLM's triplecast. I think that would be my ideal scenario, if not second-ideal scenario personally.