The current State of Casters 6.05 edition - balancing discussion

[SaberMaxwell]

@Anvair

Vercure is not good utility and you're overvaluing it a lot. A RDM vercure spamming is equivalent to a WHM cure spamming, and no dualcast doesn't make it better in any way except if you really wanna pretend a frontloaded second gcd heal of the exact same potency is amazing. Dualcasted spells still take the gcd, yes even verraise. A dualcasted raise is 5s compared to a hardcasted raise at 8s with 0 spellspeed, the only obvious advantage being that you're only clamped in place for 1.8 of those seconds and you get to deal an attack with that first spell. Even for rdm a swiftcasted raise is more efficient.

Factor in also that vercure for rdm has the exact same opportunity cost (we're talking anywhere from 300 to 400 flat potency costs, not even factoring in mana potency) and its just so very rarely worth it as anything other than mid battle dualcast prep when the boss isn't around.

[Absimiliard]

SMN Less than BLM, slightly above or on par with RDM DPS wise, Utility: more than BLM, Less than RDM. RDM, Highest overall utility for casters, lower dps than SMN by a smidge due to the ablity to duel cast Vercure and Verraise, and party wide barrier.

...Hol' up. What? You do realize that Vercure and Verraise cease being desirable in a raiding environment after progression, yes? To reiterate a point that has at this point been beaten to death; placing RDM below SMN in their current states is just going to kick the Rez Mage meme back into full effect. RDM may have slightly more utility than SMN, but this is a game that leans more into DPS than any other facet of... well, literally any job at this point. Even healers and tanks are judged primarily according to the damage they can output.

[Aikaal]

Yeah it's been pointed out that RDM stop being relevant past progression if utility is their only strong point. I think most RDM would lose to have their raise nerf if it keeps them competitive firepower wise. Vercure is near useless, the only time it can save you is in things like UCoB and it's been 2 expansions. You don,t want SMN to get to a point where RDM is irreverent.

I would think if Phoenix support were not restricted and raise on a long CD as instant cast. Adjusting SMN firepower to the same power than RDM, then it wouldn't matter and be pretty balanced.

[Dyvid]

Well, sorry to say, Summoner is a caster.

I just want to point out SE's definition here for a second: Magical ranged DPS attack foes using a variety of arcane arts. Movement is restricted by casting times, but they excel at inflicting high burst damage.

Now maybe it's time for SE to sit down and reevaluate what each role is really suppose to be but another discussion. Based on this definition however Summoner only really cast 1 maybe 2 spells total. Mobility may have improved but if the mage can't cast because of movement, that is a dps lose. It's a fact that can not be disputed. On the other hand spells damage potency should be adjusted to make up for the difference due to that dps lose, which is basically what the mobility tax is. I would love to see SE's data chart on how much time each job spends actually casting but of course we aren't privy to such things. I would say as a very rough estimate SMN spends maybe 10% to 15% of time casting, RDM around 30% to 50%, and BLM 60% to 75%.

Raise is another key issue that must be fixed with in the role. I'm sorry but it's time to remove it from jobs and place it as a role action ability (not spell).

Now we my not like to think of Phoenix's gifts as anything other than a novelty, but it is there regardless if it's a poor design and must be taking into account when discussing balance. This is the problem when you start giving DPS jobs none DPS raid buffs, it makes it harder to balance out because we are trying to put a value of healing tools then nerf a jobs DPS accordingly.

[Aikaal]

That is true SMN just barely cast anything. That is fundamentally a flaw in the design they didn't consider would displeased the playerbase.

As for raise, it would make no sense for Black Mage to have that, they've always been avatars of destructive magic in Final Fantasy. In due respect, Summoners shouldn't have access to raise. They got it because of the terrible design of arcanist who turns into Scholar and Summoner. It does make sense for Red Mages since they are adept to both black and white magic. However, if you take that definition to the core, then you'd give them the DPS average of a WHM and BLM which doesn't make sense in the balance.

In a sense, Summoner was never just a pure Summoner. In all Final Fantasy games, your Summoner would have access to either Black or White magic. FF9 your Summoners had white magic. Yuna had white magic. Rydia from FF4 had both Black and White magic and eventually only access to her summons and Black Magic.

Because Summon Magic is versatile, it does make sense Summoner would have access to healing magic. It entirely depends on the Summons they gave Summoners and since they elected to give Phoenix, the bird of Flame and Rebirth, raise makes total sense for them to have but it should be limited and not restricted. Phoenix healing support should not be restricted because that just watered down the appeal of it. In general, I like the idea of being able to cast big Summons from times to times because you wouldn't spam Summon spells in a final Fantasy game (Honestly for those who only do Knights of the Round in FF7, you bunch are just... different people). Have Summoners be infused with the energy from their Summons make sense to me. What doesn't make sense is how it doesn't add up that I/T/G trio is gated behind pressing Summon Phoenix/Bahamut. To begin with, why must it be Bahamut over Phoenix first? Those are questionable designs that doesn't feel appealing to the job.

Regarding raise, I do think SUmmoners and Red Mage should still have it. It's a nice feature for them to have but it should be limited to once per cooldown and it shouldn't impact much of their damage when casting.

Fixing damage is easy, you can just add potency and call it a day. Summoner does need a fix on that. But we can all agree that the new Summoner has potential but the design is just not there. Having a gimmick and system regarding the Ruins and Rite spells does feel appreciate. Having more casts would help I'd say also. What I'd say is very questionable is how Titan Rite spells are instant cast versus Ifrit hardcasts and deal much more damage. There is not a single instance where you could say Ifrit is better than Titan.

Also one thing I'd like to mention and I can't be the only one. I am really not keen on turning down my own effects when I raid on Summoner or play a different job. But while it makes sense for me to do callouts, there's no way I can do it consistently in my raid group because I just flashbang myself whenever Ifrit or Titan comes out. Tuning down the effects would be greatly appreciated.

[Adelx]

I agree with you.

[Zarkovitch]

As person who play smn on raid there two option the devs could do boost firepower or boost utility due the fact smn is on weird spot right now. They need something to say 'Hey
I Bring this on table compare to other casters'.

[Brandedblade]

Bear in mind that RDM is going to drop off significantly once the progression period is over. Even with its current state, there's no reason to bring it over a BLM once scraping people off the floor is no longer necessary.

You have a valid point, but between having embolden and a second addle for even MORE mitigation i may just stay put on rdm instead of working on making a new set for blm.

[ghm12]

Well, sorry to say, Summoner is a caster.

With four casts (Ifrit twice, Slipstream, Ruin III filler) in a 60s rotation window? a caster that barely casts, really?

Mobility is a petty reason for people to say SMN is balanced right now. People see it as it makes them easier to play, yeah to a certain degree but they never needed that mobility. Here's a list of the changes that simplified jobs;
- Blood of the Dragoon is a trait
- Enochian is a trait now

I don't see them taxing those changes and I don't want them to be taxed.

I fail to understand how Enochian being a trait changes BLM gameplay in any way. The *only* change you could argue is that you don't lose *too much* if you mess up badly and somehow drop enochian twice within a 30s window. You still lose your polyglot progress just like before. It's just one less button you do in the opener if you play properly. Only that. Those changes shouldn't be taxed because they barely do anything.

Mobility was greatly improved for all SMN, BLM and RDM.
- BLM has a quickcast Paradox on their Ice Rotation. 2 Triple Casts, 2 Sharpcasts for quickcast Fire III and/or Thunder III. BLM has absurd mobility in their toolkit, they simply optimize when they have to move during a fight.
- RDM has a quick cast every 2 GCD. They have more melee combos now. Accelerate is now a quickcast and has 2 charges, they can effectively just swiftcast for mobility since they don't need to hold swiftcast for raise. They, too, can optimize around an entire fight.
- SMN hard cast 7 times per 2 minutes which 2 of those hardcast are 2.8 seconds and 1 is 3 second. Ifrit Rite spell can be improved with swiftcast for a damage gain.

But SMN is still the most mobile, thus it deals the least damage. RDM is mobile I agree, but not as much. BLM still has to deal with leyline positioning, especially since most fights of this tier has major mechanics happening during burst windows.

The whole point of casters doing more damage than phys ranged is because they have to stand still to cast, yet they do less damage than the melees overall because they don't have to be in melee range. If you take away casting like SMN did, how are they different from phys ranged other than role actions (addle) or mana management? (which is only an issue if you raise a lot or run high sps builds)

I joined this post to see if people were bothered by BLM leylines timing but I've read 10+ pages about RDM vs SMN. Mobility tax is real, it's one of the reason why BLM is the "turret caster" that deals most damage even though the rotation is "braindead" or "not busy". It's also why it's the most variant DPS comparing bad and good performance. In the current way of kits, SMN should be the one doing less damage by having less complexibility.

Does SMN deserves buffs? Yeah!
To the point of being equal to RDM? If they keep SMN as it is now, not really, no.

[ghm12]

Grimoire-M's analysis on DPS is pretty good, they have a really good point and you should read it again if you decided to ignore some of it because "it's not only about casters".