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  1. #1
    Player
    Aikaal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    936
    Character
    Aikaal Leyma
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell View Post
    -snip-
    Lol, no worries.

    Well, you'll be glad to know SMN is a lot less mobile is 70 and 80 content. In 70 content, Ruin III is stronger than your Garuda Rite quickcasts. You get more mobility at 86 from getting Astral Flow abilities from your elemental summons.

    I didn't get to really experiment and do optimize runs in the last eden tier on caster. I can only check the top 50 on fflogs. I know RDM was slightly weaker than SMN back then but if you look at SMN vs RDm on E9S and E12S II, it was 26% vs 20% in favor for SMN for E9S and 43% vs 38% in favor of SMN.

    Right now if you check P1S, 61% for RDM vs 19% on SMN and 57% vs 28% in favor of RDM.

    Funny enough when you look at pure damage on fflogs. Both in e9s and e12s RDM make the top 5 having an overall beterr damage output than SMN despite SMN having more exposure. Right now in Pandaemonium, funny enough, SMN is beating RDM by like 20 DPS on p1s but is losing by like 150 dps on p4s.

    My guess is with the craziest setups, you can probably have the underdog pull an upset. However, the exposure of both jobs is currently what is worrying.

    I think in general, downtime is bad for everyone but in current example. I doubt any minor melee combos would have a bigger impact than having to unsync Bahamut on buff windows. It's straight 1800 potency you're losing in that burst. The downtime is also only 9 second. The issue is it happens during a buff window so buffs are delayed. You can delay Searing Light but SMN's current rotation doesnt allow you to just delay Bahamut, you'd be spamming Ruin III for 11 seconds, arguably the worst choice you could make. The current top SMN on p2s can,t breach 8k rDPS while RDM is at 8141 (roughly 150 more)

    If anything, in ultimates, you are required to move more, you have more mechanics to deal and they are faster and more deadly. But because ultimates are also extremely rough, raise and magick barrier are likely just superior choices I'd feel since you aint really looking at speed running ultimates.

    Quote Originally Posted by rewd View Post
    It's not a competition between RDM and SMN, no one is saying that SMN is less mobile. If you are saying that "RDM casts XY% of the time" is not as cut and dry as presented, then you have to make similar considerations for SMN too. Saying that SMN should be treated and balanced as a Phys ranged DPS is dumb and for several reasons:
    I'm pretty sure his goal isn't to put a competition between the jobs but he just want to clarify. Because it's true SMN always had the bigger end of the stick in term of firepower but RDM brought other stuff.

    People that just bring out the RDM vs SMN are usually just saying dumb stuff like, "mobility should be taxed and braindead jobs are expected to deal braindead dps"
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    Last edited by Aikaal; 01-15-2022 at 02:40 AM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Imoen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    542
    Character
    Imoen Orunitia
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Aikaal View Post
    In 70 content, Ruin III is stronger than your Garuda Rite quickcasts.
    Genuinely curious.

    Is it though? A partial cast is not a full cast and we are still going to pop our Bahamut proportionally and hardcast at least one of Ifrit before getting to a second cycle of ruda, which is where the pot gain would be, on a second full cycle, right?

    I'm only asking because it seems like you have put a lot more thought into the actual numbers than I have. Anyway sorry for the silly question.
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  3. #3
    Player
    Aikaal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    936
    Character
    Aikaal Leyma
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Imoen View Post
    Genuinely curious.

    Is it though? A partial cast is not a full cast and we are still going to pop our Bahamut proportionally and hardcast at least one of Ifrit before getting to a second cycle of ruda, which is where the pot gain would be, on a second full cycle, right?

    I'm only asking because it seems like you have put a lot more thought into the actual numbers than I have. Anyway sorry for the silly question.
    At level 70 content, your Garuda Rite attacks are 180 potency; 120 PPS. Ruin III is 310 for 2.5 cast so it's 124 PPS. You do have Garuda Rite has a mobility option but essentially it is weaker. Ifrit Rite is 128.57 PPS and Titan Rite is 120 PPS.

    Both Garuda and Titan are quick cast options however but hey, I ain't SE doing all that balance. If you ask me, I do question and find it question that at 90 Topaz Rite is a quickcast with an oGCD that is your highest PPS spell just behind your Phoenix GCDs but above your Bahamut GCD. I say that because Ruby Rite spells are long casts and do less DPS. Slipstream is a long cast and deals less DPS also. So in situaiton you gotta sac multiple GCDs, why would you ever pick the casts options when the instant casts are stronger? There's no reward in risking it.

    Also, I got to prog P3S and I swapped from SMN to RDM. RDM really has no issue there, if anything, hitting Resolution on the boss + 2 darkflames is pretty dope. Personally as a main SMN who knows exactly how to optimize SMN and a seasoned RDM who knows the job and is still figuring the optimal options and still drifts his oGCDs. It's just a straight win for my group if I got RDM and bring Magick Barrier and raise for progression because wipes are a thing. As an additional bonus, I just do the same damage.

    However, p3s is already a terrible fight to claim good performances as the community deemed unworthy to include the entire add phase. I understand why, you can't have a strat involving 1 person AoEing the whole phase. but that would mean, in order for me to get a good performance, I will be spending about 20 seconds just casting Ruin III on Summoner to just align my Bahamut with buff windows. That's an awful decision as a progression / kill time perspective but it is the smartest option for my own selfish performances.
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  4. #4
    Player
    Imoen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    542
    Character
    Imoen Orunitia
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Aikaal View Post
    snip
    Thanks, I get the pps thing, but I assume there is only so many spells you can actually cast between Demi cycles. So I guess I was curious if you actually got the benefit of casting the Ruin over the Rite or if by doing that, you were delaying Demi slightly or something, since Ruda's Rites shorten the GCD. (Or if you end up with extra dead time using Rite)

    I'll have to sit down and look at it at some point lol. Like from what I saw in HoH you can do 4 charges of Rite in 6 seconds. Ruin can only get two casts in that same time frame (Since a partial cast is not a cast at all) and that puts Rite ahead of Ruin in that context. It was a quick glance though so, ya that's why I was curious. Anyway, I don't want to veer off topic, that just caught my eye and got me curious.
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    Last edited by Imoen; 01-16-2022 at 02:59 AM.

  5. #5
    Player
    Sunako's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    1,439
    Character
    Sunako Kirishiki
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Pictomancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Aikaal View Post
    At level 70 content, your Garuda Rite attacks are 180 potency; 120 PPS. Ruin III is 310 for 2.5 cast so it's 124 PPS. You do have Garuda Rite has a mobility option but essentially it is weaker. Ifrit Rite is 128.57 PPS and Titan Rite is 120 PPS.
    Ruin 3 is not 310 potency before lvl 84 trait?
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  6. #6
    Player
    Aikaal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    936
    Character
    Aikaal Leyma
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunako View Post
    Ruin 3 is not 310 potency before lvl 84 trait?
    Oh, I didn't even noticed. It's 300 potency before 84. So it's a 120 PPS versus 120 for Garuda/Titan Rite., That said, it remains kinda similar, there's no gain or loss so yeah, you can just spam Ruin III if you don't need the mobility. Thanks for correcting me.
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