Thread: The current State of Casters 6.05 edition - balancing discussion

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Ok, here's the more constructive version:
- RDM can rez more
- RDM doesn't lose DPS just from keeping open the possibility of a rez
- RDM has vercure, actual on-demand healing that can be used to recover at critical junctures
- RDM has excellent mobility (similar to SMN)
- RDM has a good raid buff (similar to SMN)

Thus:
SMN should not pay a higher tax than RDM for its utility.

And here is a more constructive counter.
- Ability to rez has no use at the highest end of gameplay and does not justify a highest potential damage tax.
- SMN doesn't lose DPS from Phoenix Regens. Vercure is significantly more situational and is a heavy DPS loss. Just the idea of you claiming that this 15k single target GCD heal has any potential to recover is asinine.
- Damage buffs are not utility. They are rolled into rDPS and don't matter for the conversation.
- Mobility tax is a real thing that physical ranged suffer from. Giving SMN an exemption from this tax is entirely unfair. If SMN has to go up in damage so do MCH, DNC and BRD.

Originally Posted by Azuri

I invite you take a look at what Mazz Maryoku has been doing in speeds on RDM.



Tell this to MCH, DNC and BRD since about ShB. At this point in the game, you do indeed trade power for mobility. We can argue if this is a fair decision or not but it is one the dev team has already made.



You can do in-depth optimization on most jobs. Your precious SMN isn't in any way special.



I would have been more willing to have a constructive argument if your whole post didn't try to downplay all of SMN's advantage while upplaying that stupid "Red Mage has infinite rez" bullshit. Right now it just reeks of "my SMN should have more DPS than RDM!11!!".

Most Machinist would gladly trade moiblity for power right now. Ranged Phys main staple is mobility. It was never the case for caster. Go ahead and ask all Summoner mains if they asked and wanted more mobility than they had in ShB? All will say they didn't want that extra mobility. They can revert that decision because it was a bad one

Everyone can optimize but only summoner has caveats that even when you work around you still get punished. Look at P2S since you cleared it, you can hold your CDs and melee combos on RDM until the boss is back and have your burst ready. For Summoner, I can hold my Searing Light but I can't hold my Bahamut. It would require an absurd but possible amount of speed to work around it and on week 1 that's just not happening. Searing Light is still gated behind that Carbuncle must be up and having to push Bahamut just means my burst windows won't align with any cooldown. The caveats on Summoner are just a negative at this point because you can't ask me to have multiple sets just for 1 fight.

Lastly, I do not seek X job to be better than Y job unlike you. Summoner should have a bit more power than Red Mage because Red Mage would still be played because they can res. I can't without saccing my swift which is used in my DPS rotation. You have Magick Barrier which I do see you use a lot which helps your party. I want a balanced meta and mobility isn't what makes you stronger. When the fight is learned, mobility is strong until you have too much of it. Having more mobility wont make you stronger so it should not gut your damage.

You can take a look at the current rankings of P1S on all casters. Mobility isn't winning and unfortunately for you. Red Mage has superior ressing abilities and superior support and it should impact your power. That,s being fair and neutral, if you think it doesn't matter then you are simply biased toward Red Mage.

Originally Posted by Azuri

And here is a more constructive counter.
- Ability to rez has no use at the highest end of gameplay and does not justify a highest potential damage tax.
- SMN doesn't lose DPS from Phoenix Regens. Vercure is significantly more situational and is a heavy DPS loss. Just the idea of you claiming that this 15k single target GCD heal has any potential to recover is asinine.
- Damage buffs are not utility. They are rolled into rDPS and don't matter for the conversation.
- Mobility tax is a real thing that physical ranged suffer from. Giving SMN an exemption from this tax is entirely unfair. If SMN has to go up in damage so do MCH, DNC and BRD.

Here's a counter argument of your counter.

- Phoenix regen and single target heal is restricted on a time frame when Phoenix is up.
- Mobility is a feature from physical ranged DPS, not caster.
- Ability to res allows you to progress faster for your clears. Otherwise nobody would play Red Mage and Summoner, they'd all play Black Mage.
- Red Mage ability to heal in panic moment helps progress and see further mechanics, something that Summoner cannot provide.

Originally Posted by Awarewolf

I find it strange that Summoner has all these instant casts, but it’s pretty well known that pure Summoners in previous FF games had the longest cast times for massive AoE damage.

This is reflected that Summon Phoenix and Bahamut deals no damage for a GCD and that Summon Garuda/Ifrit/Titan takes 5 seconds of yourn Carbuncle when summoned! It's a neat touch they've done.

Originally Posted by Aikaal

Most Machinist would gladly trade moiblity for power right now. Ranged Phys main staple is mobility. It was never the case for caster. Go ahead and ask all Summoner mains if they asked and wanted more mobility than they had in ShB? All will say they didn't want that extra mobility. They can revert that decision because it was a bad one

Everyone can optimize but only summoner has caveats that even when you work around you still get punished. Look at P2S since you cleared it, you can hold your CDs and melee combos on RDM until the boss is back and have your burst ready. For Summoner, I can hold my Searing Light but I can't hold my Bahamut. It would require an absurd but possible amount of speed to work around it and on week 1 that's just not happening. Searing Light is still gated behind that Carbuncle must be up and having to push Bahamut just means my burst windows won't align with any cooldown. The caveats on Summoner are just a negative at this point because you can't ask me to have multiple sets just for 1 fight.

Lastly, I do not seek X job to be better than Y job unlike you. Summoner should have a bit more power than Red Mage because Red Mage would still be played because they can res. I can't without saccing my swift which is used in my DPS rotation. You have Magick Barrier which I do see you use a lot which helps your party. I want a balanced meta and mobility isn't what makes you stronger. When the fight is learned, mobility is strong until you have too much of it. Having more mobility wont make you stronger so it should not gut your damage.

You can take a look at the current rankings of P1S on all casters. Mobility isn't winning and unfortunately for you. Red Mage has superior ressing abilities and superior support and it should impact your power. That,s being fair and neutral, if you think it doesn't matter then you are simply biased toward Red Mage.

I will repeat it one more time. If you get to claim that mobility doesn't make you stronger I get to counter that more accessible raise doesn't make you stronger. Your teammates can just not die. And at a point where DPS difference between jobs becomes relevant not dying is a pretty basic standard.

And once again. Either everyone gets taxed for mobility or no one. I would have had much less problems with SMN damage buffs if it retained more cast times. But it didn't.

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Or RDM can come down in damage.

I mean, not really since SE doesn't do nerfs if they can avoid it. But, you know, if there's a mobility tax then RDM definitely isn't paying enough for "every other GCD, and every GCD during several combos, is instant".

Didn't know RDM is on the same level as BLM or top dog melees. Oh. It isn't.