Thread: The current State of Casters 6.05 edition - balancing discussion

I will say, Mr.JP, that what they're saying was a real phenomenon that occurred. People progged then dropped RDM players to the point I had to form my own static with the basic foundation being my desire to play RDM and not swap jobs.
Back in StB and ShB, RDMs were subject to the same rhetoric of "everyone gets their turn in the barrel" on several of the Official Forum arguments I participated in. A lot of the times, the players' mains were SMN, but not always, so I empathize with how you're feeling when being subjected to people telling you that same thing. I get where some players come from now that the shoe is on the other foot, but it's not any more fun of a rhetoric now than it was then, it's just that the shoe is on the other foot. At the core ironically, we all more or less agree on the solution: shackle raise and normalize RDM/SMN against each other.
Though at the moment, their damage is more or less normalized against each other--as Madoka pointed out, SMN isn't that far behind RDM. In your particular situation ironically, you could have gone as RPR anyway and it wouldn't have dropped the group's contribution too much at all--maybe sacrificed some LB gen--but RPR/RPR/NIN/RDM and RPR/NIN/SMN/RDM both give +2% contribution. Rolling SMN/RDM isn't a bad comp either necessarily, especially if raise access is what's being asked for, because it just means there are more players who can raise, and again, they do similar damage.

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I think you're being a bit disingenuous by acting like you got high purples on your first clears through the fight. On Ramuh, yes, but as soon as Ifrit and Garuda it takes you six clears to get anything above 65. Your first clears of Idol are green, grey, and green. It took you four clears to get your only purple ever in Shiva. With one and a half hands, sure that's impressive and I don't want to take away that accomplishment, but don't pretend you even halfway began to optimize the job.

I do agree logs are a pretty stupid way to point out an argument. I ado appreciate you digging the past but I don't see why you had to point out the bad logs only lol. You've also farmed your Verse logs. I did not. We have compared logs on the week of March 3rd to 5th. I got a 75 and you got a 83. I was playing RDM on raid for the first time with an injury. There's also always gonna have a skill ceiling and I can tell you there's a significant difference between an ok Summoner and a good Summoner similar to RDM. Still, I pointed it out simply because the argument that Summoner is brain dead is invalid because I also find RDM brain dead. It's all preferences and it shouldn't matter in the balance.

Originally Posted by Azuri

Not agreeing with you doesn't mean that I'm not contributing to the conversation. Your opinions are not absolute and as such are open to be challenged. Your opinion on "ranged tax" doesn't align with the precedent of how SE balanced physical ranged. Your opinion on rotational difficulty not correlating with higher damage doesn't align with the view of Director and Producer himself. I find it equally fair to challenge your opinion on support and general balance as well. Afterall, your arguments are full of double standards and fallacies. And since you have not yet deigned to adress those I consider them pretty valuable to highlight.

Honestly, we could meet in the middle as SaberMaxwell pointed out. With SMN and RDM on par with each other. Add another 200-250 rDPS to SMN and they will be within 5% variation and crit RNG of each other. One will pay for it's slightly higher support capabilites and the other for its slightly higher rotational simplicity and mobility. And no one will feel useless.

Quite frankly, if they do acknowledge the raise tax shouldn't exist and they simply turn it into a long cooldown as an instant cast. Having comparable DPS would be fine. Because while Ver Cure and Magick Barrier can be used at will compared to Rekindle and Everlasting Flight because these skills can only be used under Phoenix. There is an argument that there is so much mitigation but it devalues Magick Barrier. However, it's still slightly better.

I get why Red Mages mains are tired that raise tax should penalize them but it's the sad truth. There is a thing, a saying; Ver Raise and Ver Cure have helped recover and clear UCoB clears. It's really strong. Well, UCoB is outdated content, the same principle still applies to current raid tiers. If that can sort the feud between Summoner & Red Mage, it's probably the better option. It would affort a bit more exposure to Black Mage in progression since raise would have less value.

What remain true is that Summoner requires a change. Potency buffs would likely fix things but it'd be a cheap way to fix things. The core restrictive rotation is annoying. Having to unsync Bahamut from buff windows in a fight because its the best DPS option shows that Summoner has anti-synergy with the rest of his/her party.

Originally Posted by MrJPtheAssassin

All I have to say is I'm sorry that happened I honestly didn't know since I personally didn't see it happen. I still stand by what I have said over and over in this thread and I'm just tired of repeating myself to these rdm who don't want to listen to reason. I'm done, I'm checking out, they have won because I'm tired of being attacked for not wanting to feel unwanted. Two wrongs don't make a right. Again I'm done with this thread and with any ego-infected rdm who thinks smn deserves to be denied in parties just because they had to go through that themselves. That's a community problem, not a balance one.

There was indeed a time on RDM release in Stormblood. I was playing melee but Red Mage was heavily memed on. It was fixed imho during ShB but they were tuned down damage wise but had good party buffs so people would pick them. Fixing Embolden so everyone benefits from Embolden is honestly the greatest QoL they got imho.

If that make y'all Red Mages more happy, I did update the original post and added that you don't want your firepower to be under Summoners when adjustments are made on Summoners.

I didn't say that to make you apologize, I'm sorry that's what that came off as. What I'm trying to say is I understand how you feel, and as tempting as it is to do so, to not project that anger onto the Red Mage playerbase itself, or even the players you've been arguing with. What you're feeling right now, that sense of being unwanted is something that nobody wants and a lot of Red Mages are afraid of going back to it I imagine.

Originally Posted by Aikaal

I do agree logs are a pretty stupid way to point out an argument. I ado appreciate you digging the past but I don't see why you had to point out the bad logs only lol. You've also farmed your Verse logs. I did not. We have compared logs on the week of March 3rd to 5th. I got a 75 and you got a 83. I was playing RDM on raid for the first time with an injury. There's also always gonna have a skill ceiling and I can tell you there's a significant difference between an ok Summoner and a good Summoner similar to RDM. Still, I pointed it out simply because the argument that Summoner is brain dead is invalid because I also find RDM brain dead. It's all preferences and it shouldn't matter in the balance.

We'll agree that complexity doesn't matter when it comes to balance. It seems you understand my main point, though I'll reiterate that my philosophy tends to be "All jobs are braindead until you start trying to optimize them" so balancing around that kind of concept is difficult.

Quite frankly, if they do acknowledge the raise tax shouldn't exist and they simply turn it into a long cooldown as an instant cast. Having comparable DPS would be fine. Because while Ver Cure and Magick Barrier can be used at will compared to Rekindle and Everlasting Flight because these skills can only be used under Phoenix. There is an argument that there is so much mitigation but it devalues Magick Barrier. However, it's still slightly better.

I'll maintain "only very slightly, and only due to ease of use." Phoenix's Rekindle absolutely BOMBS a person with health for no opportunity cost, and the buff lasts a full 30 seconds after cast so it can be dropped well in advance of a tankbuster and still get most of the desired effect.

I get why Red Mages mains are tired that raise tax should penalize them but it's the sad truth. There is a thing, a saying; Ver Raise and Ver Cure have helped recover and clear UCoB clears. It's really strong. Well, UCoB is outdated content, the same principle still applies to current raid tiers. If that can sort the feud between Summoner & Red Mage, it's probably the better option. It would affort a bit more exposure to Black Mage in progression since raise would have less value.

Verraise I can see saving UCoB, but you'll forgive me being highly...highly skeptical that a vercure ever did. I can only imagine situations that are so frighteningly niche that it's barely worth considering. In conjunction with other utilities, maybe? Back when it was relevant, ie, before damage scaling got DUMB in that fight, I really struggle to imagine that a GCD heal that's about as strong as SCH's Physic could have held much together.

Now in the realm of pure philosophy, it's also worth bringing up that some fights verraise is a completely pointless utility even if everyone is dying. Verraise has very few windows it can actually effect meaningful recovery in TEA, for instance. Jagd dolls go wild, limit cuts go wild, death means losing the colored judgment stack and guaranteeing full party wipe, dying in the first half of Alex is fine but recovering from Wormhole into Enums is something not even RDM's vaunted "infinite raises" could manage due to being, in actuality, 5s per raise outside of the swiftcast raise itself. Don't even get me started about how singular deaths can doom the whole party in Perfect, though yes there are tiny windows throughout recovery is possible the way the fight was designed, recovery is often very difficult.

What remain true is that Summoner requires a change. Potency buffs would likely fix things but it'd be a cheap way to fix things. The core restrictive rotation is annoying. Having to unsync Bahamut from buff windows in a fight because its the best DPS option shows that Summoner has anti-synergy with the rest of his/her party.

I can agree here. The rigid structure makes it easy to play in a lot of situations but hardly adaptable. I don't know how they could fix this though... maybe give all summons a finish move? Akin to StB SMN's rotation where they basically DWT'd to Deathflare to jump to Bahamut asap? So like, drop Garuda and make her cast her ult so you can immediately move on to the next primal?

There was indeed a time on RDM release in Stormblood. I was playing melee but Red Mage was heavily memed on. It was fixed imho during ShB but they were tuned down damage wise but had good party buffs so people would pick them. Fixing Embolden so everyone benefits from Embolden is honestly the greatest QoL they got imho.

Embo fixes have been a gigantic boon. Also FFLogs changing to show rDPS/aDPS instead of pDPS early on in ShB was a bit of a paradigm shift for the whole community.

Originally Posted by Aikaal

Huh, I'm not angry at Red Mage as a job, but someone has been spreading nonsense and illogical arguments such as brain dead job should do brain dead damage and mobility should be taxed. That's different. Said individual really stubborn in saying not to buff Summoner over a biased preference on a caster. If anything, Azuri has been gaslighting the whole tread and I saw no reason to listen to someone that can't acknowledge when he's wrong.

I do understand that Red Mage don't want to feel weaker but it was no way any reason to derail and speak ill of a job that requires help right now. If anything, I've put the suggestion because you came in with a much more diplomatic approach, I won't entertain people that make no sense to begin with. Sorry

The pain of editing and quoting XD The apology was meant for Mr.JP because I think I aggravated them in my post, though yeah a level head is needed and I think a thread like this is good.

Originally Posted by Aikaal

Huh, I'm not angry at Red Mage as a job, but someone has been spreading nonsense and illogical arguments such as brain dead job should do brain dead damage and mobility should be taxed. That's different. Said individual really stubborn in saying not to buff Summoner over a biased preference on a caster. If anything, Azuri has been gaslighting the whole tread and I saw no reason to listen to someone that can't acknowledge when he's wrong.

I do understand that Red Mage don't want to feel weaker but it was no way any reason to derail and speak ill of a job that requires help right now. If anything, I've put the suggestion because you came in with a much more diplomatic approach, I won't entertain people that make no sense to begin with. Sorry

I believe they was talking to me for that one since I told them Im sorry rdm was denied or kicked from parties in SB. I honestly didn't know that and I apologize for being misinformed. My temper is running thin bc of Azuri and that pink miqo rdm.

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

The pain of editing and quoting XD The apology was meant for Mr.JP because I think I aggravated them in my post, though yeah a level head is needed and I think a thread like this is good.

You didn't aggravate me, I just said sorry for being misinformed. As told Aikaal my temper is running high bc of that two rdms and they got under my skin greatly. I have agreed with you this whole time and think you offered some wonderful posts. I'm just mentally tired of this argument and tired of feeling like a few rdm attacking smn and me for no reason other out of fear. I want the best for all the jobs in 14 and its players.

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

The pain of editing and quoting XD The apology was meant for Mr.JP because I think I aggravated them in my post, though yeah a level head is needed and I think a thread like this is good.

OH SHOOT XD, my bad D:

Well, glad to see this is sorted out! And yes, I do believe this sort of thread is needed to expose what the players feel to the dev team. I'm no main RDM so its natural for me to have them a bit lower than SMN but if that's what RDM wants is keep similar firepower then it should be put yeah.

So far, it's beena goof tread outside of 1 anomaly which made me go wave and length in getting TPS world first group to confirm. I wouldn't worth much better if all I wanted was a weak RDM job. I played and I like RDM lol. I still like it, it just pains me to see how SMN is right now lol

Also, unfortunately I tend to be more direct with words when I deal with those sort of situations thanks to a certain pandemic >_> the world's a pretty harsh one.

And I do agree, all jobs are brain dead to a certain degree. My big issue is, yeah Summoner is smooth brain, but you can't play other than smooth brain I can't optimize P2S. Because I don't want a choice in just casting Bahamut outside of buff windows. On RDM, you can build your melee burst to be used later so its nice for that.