VIERA AND HROTHGAR COMPLAINT MEGATHREAD

[Caro178]

Concerning "Viera hairstyles give them an obscenely large forehead" I would like to analyze it a bit. Is it actually true or is there a separate detail at play here that has been oft ignored in favour of saying the devs have done lazy work specifically on the port of these hairs to Viera? Let's compare the exact same hairstyles with some other races for a moment.

Let's start with a recent addition, Adventure:









These two look exactly the same on Viera as they do on every other race. The female style definitely gives female Vieras a large forehead, but it's not like the female Hyur's forehead is any smaller. Billboard brow all around on this one.

Let's check out the most prolific example, Ponytails:





Again, the Hyur's forehead is just as big as the Viera's. So what gives? I thought it was common knowledge that this was a Viera exclusive problem?

Another one that gets fingers pointed at it a lot: Artoriel's style





This kinda 50s style short one:







Great lengths:




A short hairstyle, Modern Legend:




With this real visual evidence in mind I posit that hairstyles do not actually look significantly different on Viera. Rather, it is the opposite - Viera base game hairstyles have incredibly low hairlines with widows' peaks in comparison to other races. As a result they also have eyebrows positioned lower on their faces. That's what is different, the visual dichotomy between Viera base game hairstyles and hairstyles ported from other races. They actually look virtually the same on everybody, we're just so used to seeing Viera with extremely low hairlines that seeing them in hair all the other races usually wear gives us the illusion that Vieras have a larger forehead in them when they mostly don't.

[Iscah]

I dislike the low hairlines on the basic Viera styles. It looks off to me, and pushed me away from picking the style I otherwise would have used.

Roegadyn seem to have the same issue, though I can't recall noticing it on other races.

I'm not sure if it's a particular artist's work, or a deliberate choice, or just trying to cram too much detail into the shape of the hair at the expense of it ending up bigger than it should.

[Caro178]

I dislike the low hairlines on the basic Viera styles. It looks off to me, and pushed me away from picking the style I otherwise would have used.

Roegadyn seem to have the same issue, though I can't recall noticing it on other races.

I'm not sure if it's a particular artist's work, or a deliberate choice, or just trying to cram too much detail into the shape of the hair at the expense of it ending up bigger than it should.

It's a highly intentional racial trait taken directly from our girl Fran. In fact, they already toned it down on XIV's Viera.

[Yencat]

Apologies for bad grammar, I am on the phone rn.

The hunch is looking very bad in a lot of glams (if not all), the texture wrapping is stretched a lot to the point that it has an ugly pixelationon on the back and it doesn't look any better on the front where it is verry obviously squished around the abdominal area. All hairstyles (if they are not very very short) clip through every chestpiece if it has a collar.
You won't hear/see me complain if they remove the hunch.
I feel it was added because it was popular with the western devs to add hunches with beast races, i say the devs cause the players in 98%of the cases hated it. The other 2% that was liked was when it made sense to add a hunch (like Charr). If your character will run by dropping on all 4's then it is accepted as a feature rather than an empty aesthetic. Which is where the FF devs saw the hunch on beast races and were like "ok, hunch=beast, got it!", but forgot to make it work by using the hunch to their advantage rather than for looks. Even the source material (the Ronso) had a straight back because they were supposed to walk and run like humans.

Tl Dr: Just get rid of the hunch, please.

Thank you, it's not talked about as often (though with how many other problems Hrothgar has had I guess it's not surprising) so I did wonder, it would be a bigger change than the potbelly/slouch fix but hopefully if there's enough noise about it they'll be open to changing it. Ideally it'd be optional because I'm sure like how it is whenever Elezen animations/proportions are brought up there's people who like how they are now, though I don't know how likely that is.

With this real visual evidence in mind I posit that hairstyles do not actually look significantly different on Viera. Rather, it is the opposite - Viera base game hairstyles have incredibly low hairlines with widows' peaks in comparison to other races. As a result they also have eyebrows positioned lower on their faces. That's what is different, the visual dichotomy between Viera base game hairstyles and hairstyles ported from other races. They actually look virtually the same on everybody, we're just so used to seeing Viera with extremely low hairlines that seeing them in hair all the other races usually wear gives us the illusion that Vieras have a larger forehead in them when they mostly don't.

This is even further exacerbated by Veena having only half the eyebrow (both in length and fullness in most cases) compared to Rava, so the amount of empty space looks even bigger.

[Caro178]

If they do get rid of the hunch I hope they make it an option you can toggle on and off. The main tank in my endgame static is a Hrothgar main, and he loves the slouch. He even tried downloading the *cough* thing that changes the posture, and he hated it so much he was complaining for an hour and left just to change it mid raid. There are Hrothgar players who like the posture and would rather not have the same humanoid posture as all the other races. Knowing how much he disliked it I would really hope for a solution that keeps both parties happy rather than swapping from one thing some people don't like to another thing other people won't like.

[Pip_Chick]

Thank you, it's not talked about as often (though with how many other problems Hrothgar has had I guess it's not surprising) so I did wonder, it would be a bigger change than the potbelly/slouch fix but hopefully if there's enough noise about it they'll be open to changing it. Ideally it'd be optional because I'm sure like how it is whenever Elezen animations/proportions are brought up there's people who like how they are now, though I don't know how likely that is.

In my expirience as an animator and rigger for 3D models. It wouldn't be hard at all, literally an axes tweak. The problem would come in remaking almost all animations for them. And even then, it would be just the personal emotes and idles cause the rest, like all job idle animations have a straight back. And they put our backs straight in almost all cutscenes, minus walking.

My secret wish for 7.0 is that with the addition of Female Hrothgar they will also tweak the male posture in such a way that they would stand straight and keep 1 of the idles hunched (like male Miquo'te). Everyone happy!

[Caro178]

This is even further exacerbated by Veena having only half the eyebrow (both in length and fullness in most cases) compared to Rava, so the amount of empty space looks even bigger.

For what it's worth I think your WoL is absolutely gorgeous and Great Length fits her perfectly. Ironically the newer hairstyles mostly have more natural hairlines, it's just hard to separate our brains from what we all got so used to on Viera because all we had for 2 years were hairstyles with low hairlines and deep widows' peaks. Anyway, yeah, she's super pretty and perfect.

[Pip_Chick]

If they do get rid of the hunch I hope they make it an option you can toggle on and off. The main tank in my endgame static is a Hrothgar main, and he loves the slouch. He even tried downloading the *cough* thing that changes the posture, and he hated it so much he was complaining for an hour and left just to change it mid raid. There are Hrothgar players who like the posture and would rather not have the same humanoid posture as all the other races. Knowing how much he disliked it I would really hope for a solution that keeps both parties happy rather than swapping from one thing some people don't like to another thing other people won't like.

This is likely an out there idea and I am 90% sure it won't happen, but a way to please every party could be to make it a clan thing, so 1 clan has a hunch while the other doesn't. If that would be the case they would have to make diferent poses and animations for them. The one clan standing up will need a few model tweaks (like making the top less heavy) and both clans will have to share a common colour scheme or at leaset add white and black to both options.
This would please everyone in theory, but I don't know, am not fully sold on the idea...
What would you guys think of that?

[ReynTime]

There are so many things that go against the idea that Hrothgar needed a hunch because they're beast looking.

They're more civilized than half the clans of races that aren't Lala, Hyur or Elezen.
Most actual beast tribes, which are even more beastly, aren't that hunched, nor do they move their heads like chickens when they walk.
If Hrothgar can straighten their posture in combat stance they sure as hell can straighten outside of it.
The lack of digitigrade feet makes their unarmed stance look even more stupid. There is no anatomical reason why they would move like that.

[Yencat]

In my expirience as an animator and rigger for 3D models. It wouldn't be hard at all, literally an axes tweak. The problem would come in remaking almost all animations for them. And even then, it would be just the personal emotes and idles cause the rest, like all job idle animations have a straight back. And they put our backs straight in almost all cutscenes, minus walking.

My secret wish for 7.0 is that with the addition of Female Hrothgar they will also tweak the male posture in such a way that they would stand straight and keep 1 of the idles hunched (like male Miquo'te). Everyone happy!

Oh I don't think it would be hard for them to do either if they wanted to do it, but for male Viera it was a relatively small change that didn't impact their emotes or idles and was done before they even released vs. a more involved change on a model that's been out for 3+ years.

But if they couldn't make it a toggle for some reason then a hunched idle sounds like an elegant solution.

For what it's worth I think your WoL is absolutely gorgeous and Great Length fits her perfectly. Ironically the newer hairstyles mostly have more natural hairlines, it's just hard to separate our brains from what we all got so used to on Viera because all we had for 2 years were hairstyles with low hairlines and deep widows' peaks. Anyway, yeah, she's super pretty and perfect.

You're very sweet! Thankfully (since it's my favourite hairstyle) I don't have an issue with how Great Lengths looks on either Rava or Veena, it's mostly the ones that already look a bit higher up that look slightly worse on Veena because of the brows. It's unlikely they'll go back and change them though so I'm not too fussed, but I wouldn't be opposed to them lowering the hairline on the worst offenders ever so slightly.