VIERA AND HROTHGAR COMPLAINT MEGATHREAD

[Caro178]

The facts as I understand them are as follows:

What HAS been promised:

> Adjusting of whatever complication was making it difficult to port brand new Modern Aesthetics to Viera/Hroth throughout ShB. Viera have received every new unlockable hairstyle released since Endwalker came out. I feel confident in saying this problem has been completely resolved.

> Regular updates for Hrothgar and Viera hairstyes. Ongoing.

> Realistic headgear compatibility taking into account our current circumstances. Since Endwalker's launch many more headgear options have become available for both races. All headpieces that rest on the hair or replace the hair completely now function with little to no exceptions.

> Male Viera. Already launched with Endwalker and already made with hairstyle compatibility in mind.

> Female Hrothgar. In development. Coming in the future as a new playable race.

What has NEVER been promised:

> Full headgear compatibility. Sure, the stance changed from "none" to "some" (with limitations) as a result of popular demand, but as of right now there has never been any promise from the devs that Viera and Hrothgar will have every available headpiece. That doesn't mean it can never happen, but it's completely in limbo unless they choose to address the topic. It's being very much ignored right now in favour of talking about what's actually in the works: fem Hroth and hairstyles.

I'll add one addendum which involves the commonly asked question "why can't they just pay the modders and use the mods that have already created in the real game?" Because these devs don't do that, full stop. They never have. If they want something done they do it themselves. I know for us it seems like an easy solution to our collective problem, but mods are against TOS. They aren't going to pay someone to do a job they could one day do themselves.

I think it's very important to keep facts straight so we don't, well, get frustrated wondering why so and so feature has yet to be implemented when we have never had confirmation that they've even been working on said feature. It's really easy to get lost in the distinctions between what things have been addressed and what things haven't been addressed.

[Midareyukki]

What HAS been promised:

> Adjusting of whatever complication was making it difficult to port brand new Modern Aesthetics to Viera throughout ShB. Viera have received every new unlockable hairstyle released since Endwalker came out. I feel confident in saying this problem has been completely resolved.

> Regular updates for Hrothgar and Viera hairstyes. Ongoing.

> Realistic headgear compatibility taking into account our current circumstances. Since Endwalker's launch many more headgear options have become available for both races. All headpieces that rest on the hair or replace the hair completely now function with little to no exceptions.

> Male Viera. Already launched with Endwalker and already made with hairstyle compatibility in mind.

> Female Hrothgar. In development. Coming in the future as a new playable race.

If true, then yeah:
- Adjustments of complications has been a weird thing. We know Hrothgar heads got shrunk xD
- Hrothgar and Viera updates are getting updated.
- Headpieces being made more available is good, though not every new model is fitted for these races... but that's currently being questioned.
- Male Viera and Femgars are an ongoing project that contradicts what they initially said would happen.

What has NEVER been promised:

> Full headgear compatibility. Sure, the stance changed from "none" to "some" (with limitations) as a result of popular demand, but as of right now there has never been any promise from the devs that Viera and Hrothgar will have every available headpiece. That doesn't mean it can never happen, but it's completely in limbo unless they choose to address the topic. It's being very much ignored right now in favour of talking about what's actually in the works: fem Hroth and hairstyles.

I'll add one addendum which involves the commonly asked question "why can't they just pay the modders and use the mods that have already created in the real game?" Because these devs don't do that, full stop. They never have. If they want something done they do it themselves. I know for us it seems like an easy solution to our collective problem, but mods are against TOS. They aren't going to pay someone to do a job they could one day do themselves.

And here's my issue.

Just so we're clear. I'm fine with "not every headgear being done". I just hoped to have MORE than what we currently have, which is paltry. Not much was changed from then, and that's what makes me question what's going on. Because otherwise I 100% get not every headgear fitting. Not without weird things going on with them.

And yeah "why can't they pay modders?", it's not just because they "don't do it". Even if they did, modders dont' work on the same level the dev team does, so that's out of the question. They don't have the same restrictions or communication. It just isn't something SE would be comfortable with. I remember that 2B's butt did get accused of have elements of work a modder did for NSFW models, but I'm no authority on this, so you guys can go ask in those specific spaces

All modders prove is that it can be done in a vaccum. And that's about all.

AND NOW I GOT NO MORE POSTS AVAILABLE, SO IF ANYONE REPLIES, SORRY, I CAN'T ANSWER RIGHT NOW.

[Caro178]

...

Well, that's the thing about where I stand on this. While it's certainly true that no promise has been made about further headgear adjustment, we're also in a position where no point has been raised to the contrary and in fact their goals have changed several times over the past 3 years. That's OK, they're allowed to change their minds. The devs going back and revising their previous stances or the scope of what they feel is realistically within their ability is completely normal and has always happened. They can change their minds, and they can also not change them. Personally, I will sleep perfectly fine at night with either outcome.

Simply put:

[Iscah]

Also o: you have any Live Letter quote where Yoshida specifically says that they'd never do more headgear at all? Preferrably after the release of these two races, but before Male Viera got confirmed. Not saying "lol you can't do it", just that you've proven yourself clearly more knowledgeable about what they said, so I figure you'd know more about that on that front.

Unfortunately I do not. I have a memory of a quote where he said to not expect full compatibility even though they were working on some aspects of it, and I know that's not very helpful to proving my point, but I don't know where to start looking for it.

I think it's very important to keep facts straight so we don't, well, get frustrated wondering why so and so feature has yet to be implemented when we have never had confirmation that they've even been working on said feature. It's really easy to get lost in the distinctions between what things have been addressed and what things haven't been addressed.

This is what I am trying to say. Keep the line clear between things they said they are going to do, and things that people want them to do but they haven't said they will.

[SigmarrIrenesch]

I didn't know hrothgar and viera were to be a "limited race", I jumped aboard in the middle of Shadowbringers. Still, personally I think that's a stupid concept, especially if we assume their main reason to go that route is the "their head shapes are so weird and different" thing. If a few modders not related to the development process are able to make it work as a hobby, what is stopping a full team of professionals? Yes, of course, the game has more important things than cosmetics to be worked on, but still. It's not impossible as claimed.

And it's not like we need absolutely every headgear in the game to be compatible. For obvious reasons, the most important would be the cash shop glamour (+ stuff you get with merch, like Matoya's Hat) which costs actual money. Being asked a full price for a set of items and then being told that "you cannot use one of the items because you decided to like this race lol" is just outright shameless. Yes, you can choose not to buy it, but that's not the point nor does it absolve Squeenix. If it costs money, make it work. This should be common sense. Job, achievement and event gear would also be nice (not to mention, a limited selection of items which means a reasonable workload), but cash shop hats/helmets would be a huge step forward.

Didn't mean to cause arguments with my previous comment, I'm just grumpy (and perhaps a bit envious of black mages and their huge hats). And if there's even the tiniest chance of making a change happen with commenting, it's worth a shot _(:△」∠)_

[Jybril]

The facts as I understand them are as follows:



> Female Hrothgar. In development. Coming in the future as a new playable race.

What has NEVER been promised: Headgear.

Imagine telling like new people that "Sorry, we can't let you wear hats on these new races" LOL.
It shouldn't be a promise, it should already be done.
If SE is struggling to do these things somehow then perhaps they should start hiring people since you have folks
literally creating a patch for new headgear SE can't seem to do in less than an hour. These excuses are lame, dude.

That said, after Femroth I honestly hope they cease making new races and put some work into the older ones.
It's evident that making these races are a struggle for some reason and the hat thing is old. It's been like 3 years now lmao?
And just now are Roths getting Karen hairs and crap. Such a joke.

[Allegor]

To be fair, the whole "no hats" was because the (alleged, now conveniently claimed "mistranslation") original intent was for both races to have unique hairstyles or customizations instead. I can only assume the devs realized they bit more than they could chew with that idea and dropped it, which is why we're now getting the mainstream hairstyles instead, and since most hats are designed with those hairstyles in mind, it should be more likely all hats will eventually work - maybe not by 7.0, or even 8.0, but someday.

[Iscah]

To be fair, the whole "no hats" was because the (alleged, now conveniently claimed "mistranslation") original intent was for both races to have unique hairstyles or customizations instead.

Did they ever say that was a mistranslation? They were built with unique models and customisation types not found on other races, although people took that to mean "a higher number of customisation options" which, again, was never actually the thing promised. They have unique hairstyles because all races have unique hairstyles.

Imagine telling like new people that "Sorry, we can't let you wear hats on these new races" LOL.

Whether it makes sense or not, that is literally what they already did.

[Allegor]

Did they ever say that was a mistranslation? They were built with unique models and customisation types not found on other races, although people took that to mean "a higher number of customisation options" which, again, was never actually the thing promised. They have unique hairstyles because all races have unique hairstyles.

Not officially, as far as I'm aware, but either it was a mistranslation nobody bothered to correct, or Yoshi P legitimately forgot what he said/was stated in previous LLs, or was lying through his teeth since he was "surprised" that people were expecting...anything at all, really.

Either way, we could probably write entire essays about technicallities, semantics, and theories regarding the questionable thought process while creating Hroths and Viera, but the past is the past and it's clear the devs are making up for it now, and that's great.

I do kinda agree though that online store hats/hairstyles should have priority and always work on Hroths and Viera. It's easy for a 'new' player to simply not buy it, since they'd be warned upfront, but to all of us who used Fantasia to race change it locked us out of using items we already bought, unless we switch back, and that's not fair.

[Yencat]

Not officially, as far as I'm aware, but either it was a mistranslation nobody bothered to correct, or Yoshi P legitimately forgot what he said/was stated in previous LLs, or was lying through his teeth since he was "surprised" that people were expecting...anything at all, really.

I think it's mostly players (myself included) that have speculated after the fact that it may have been a misinterpretation, they themselves never actually specified, though it was worded pretty ambiguously;

Q: I used fantasia to change to Viera and I'm enjoying it. As they're a special race and it may not be possible, but feel like the number of hairstyles available for Viera and Hrothgar is quite limited. Do you have plans to add more in the future?

A: We certainly plan on adding more, so please wait for future patches. However, it will still be race-specific, so there won’t be as many selections when compared to other races.

I don't think we were necessarily wrong to interpret it the way we did, but now in hindsight it could easily be read as having to make race-specific adjustments to make them work or due to race-specific factors certain hairstyles won't make it over.

The only thing that doesn't line up with anything that was said previously was what he said when he announced we'd finally be getting more hairstyles;

We’d previously announced we’d be unable to add more hairstyles for Viera and Hrothgar as they are designed in a special way compared to other races. However, we saw an extreme number of requests from across the globe, so the development team set out to rework the system and finally made it possible to add more hairstyles after almost two years.

So then we went from "please wait for future patches" to "remember how we said you were never getting new hairstyles?".

Either way, we could probably write entire essays about technicallities, semantics, and theories regarding the questionable thought process while creating Hroths and Viera, but the past is the past and it's clear the devs are making up for it now, and that's great.

I agree, whatever the original intent may have been it's pretty clear they've settled on a course to add the hairstyles already available to everyone but us. Unless they plan to give every race more race-locked hairstyles at some point I don't think they're going to make more only for V/H.