Blitz monk should not be the way forward for the job

[wereotter]

There definitely was a time where monk didn't have a burst phase, and rather it just offered steady, consistent damage across the whole of a fight. It was different from the rest and actually made the job a lot simpler to play. It was more about knowing how to optimize your rotation and adjusting to make sure you consistently hit your positionals.

Now... monk feels like a clone of older versions of ninja. I don't hate that we have a couple big attacks and party utility. But for me, I'd prefer going back to steady damage, and high speed with hitting that consistency relying on player attentiveness than getting your things right in the burst window. The latter is basically every other job in the game.

[ssunny2008]

It was different from the rest and actually made the job a lot simpler to play.

I agree with everything else, but not with this one so far.

A lot of points ppl brought up in the past has been like "MNK is too punishing". No matter if it was the downtime or death-penalty with GL or to miss some positionals caused by mechanics or bad tanks. You had to line up your burstphase aswell too and the cd´s weren´t so perfect aligned through all classes as they are now. (I´m convinced that all those ppl who claimed "positionals are easy but suck", didn´t perform well with them so...)

Imo the current MNK has less to do, everything aligns perfectly if you just hold it on cooldown, the core rotation is the same and positionals got cutted hard. Nadi´s can´t be failed due to celestial. PR can´t be missed, no matter how you smash on your keyboard. To use the same Nadi twice isn´t that big of a deal too. Yes you delay PR, but if it has that big effect depends on the fights length. Missing a buffed bootshine positional has been probably worse and they´ve been way more common than those 3 burstskills within 2 minutes.

Might be opinion-based and ofc the no GL-MNK wasn´t that hard to play, but i guess the stuff we had before has been more difficult to play than Blitzmonk with less stuff to care about.

[wereotter]

I agree with everything else, but not with this one so far.

A lot of points ppl brought up in the past has been like "MNK is too punishing". No matter if it was the downtime or death-penalty with GL or to miss some positionals caused by mechanics or bad tanks. You had to line up your burstphase aswell too and the cd´s weren´t so perfect aligned through all classes as they are now. (I´m convinced that all those ppl who claimed "positionals are easy but suck", didn´t perform well with them so...)

Imo the current MNK has less to do, everything aligns perfectly if you just hold it on cooldown, the core rotation is the same and positionals got cutted hard. Nadi´s can´t be failed due to celestial. PR can´t be missed, no matter how you smash on your keyboard. To use the same Nadi twice isn´t that big of a deal too. Yes you delay PR, but if it has that big effect depends on the fights length. Missing a buffed bootshine positional has been probably worse and they´ve been way more common than those 3 burstskills within 2 minutes.

Might be opinion-based and ofc the no GL-MNK wasn´t that hard to play, but i guess the stuff we had before has been more difficult to play than Blitzmonk with less stuff to care about.

I'm thinking really far back, like Heavensward monk, which didn't really have a burst phase. You'd maybe use Fracture and refresh Bootshine if Battle Litany or Trick Attack was up, and that was it. Otherwise monk just had a steady baseline damage that was entirely dependent on you being able to maximize up time and properly execute positionals. Sure you'd lose some, like if you couldn't move to the flank because Scrapline was charging up in A9, but you'd just take the penalty from missing the position because it was more important to keep your GCD rolling.

I'm not saying that the current iteration is bad or hard, I just preferred having steady damage to having burst then lull then burst and repeat.

[Shurrikhan]

I'm thinking really far back, like Heavensward monk, which didn't really have a burst phase. You'd maybe use Fracture and refresh Bootshine if Battle Litany or Trick Attack was up, and that was it. Otherwise monk just had a steady baseline damage that was entirely dependent on you being able to maximize up time and properly execute positionals. Sure you'd lose some, like if you couldn't move to the flank because Scrapline was charging up in A9, but you'd just take the penalty from missing the position because it was more important to keep your GCD rolling.

I'm not saying that the current iteration is bad or hard, I just preferred having steady damage to having burst then lull then burst and repeat.

You still built around Internal Release and Blood for Blood back then, ideally getting ToD and Demolish into both.

Heck, perhaps the only reason it didn't feel like it had a burst phase was just that PB was on a whopping 3-minute cooldown, leaving you far fewer tools with which to exploit your damage (you just had the rotational string leading up to your CDs in which to rearrange ToD, Fracture, and Demolish) such that those bonuses felt more... passive.

Given that the difference seems less one between burst and sustain and just having additional means of control and not having them...

[wereotter]

You still built around Internal Release and Blood for Blood back then, ideally getting ToD and Demolish into both.

Heck, perhaps the only reason it didn't feel like it had a burst phase was just that PB was on a whopping 3-minute cooldown, leaving you far fewer tools with which to exploit your damage (you just had the rotational string leading up to your CDs in which to rearrange ToD, Fracture, and Demolish) such that those bonuses felt more... passive.

Given that the difference seems less one between burst and sustain and just having additional means of control and not having them...

Funny.... after so long typing this out, I'd actually forgotten about inner release and blood for blood, but I suppose that did create a bit of a burst window, though even then that kind of burst was nothing so extreme as the brotherhood, riddle of fire, and two blitzes plus all the forbidden charkras level of burst monk is now.

[Burningskull]

I like the direction MNK is going in but I can't say I like how it was implemented.

[Gameovers]

As a retired monk main the changes took me a bit to understand, and I finally understand them. But I kindof hate them. Things I like are the GL being a trait oddly enough. I like just going in and only getting faster without worry of getting hit with slowmo shoes. But the new mech we got I kindof no I flat out hate. Maybe I just suck but I hate the new mech we got. It never feel goods and just feels like adding busy work to a class that didn't need busy work. Why we gotta be low tier ninjas? I wish we go back to just being a fast high damage hitting class with no sega gimps. Matter of fact why can't monk just be a martial artist class that has a flat good and beffy rotation without the mini games? Take out the mini games and add a bit more to the basic rotation and it'll be almost perfect I think. I just hate the mini game added.

[waterboytkd]

I like the current monk. I wanted to main it back in the early days of ShB, but GL was such an unfain and frustrating mechanic. After they "traited" GL, I enjoyed monk, but it felt really simple. This current version is a bit more involved than late ShB, though still a bit simple. The one thing I'm still not a big fan of is the DoT on Demolish. Though it's easier to manage now, thanks to the freedom we get during PB windows, it still promotes a fairly rigid "best" gcd.

An idea I had on that front was moving the DoT to Six-Sided Star, and changing SSS to a normal GCD (130 Potency + DoT). DoT duration could be adjusted, if needed, but in the end doesn't really matter since SSS can be injected into the rotation without interrupting it. As for Demolish, stick a new buff on it with an 18s duration (maybe Crit chance bonus?), and we stay with the 18 GCD core rotation.

Also, Anatman is still useless. What would people think of changing it into something like Sam's meditation, where every server tick while Anatman-ing, you open a Beast Chakra? That way, it's useful pre-pull to get an extra blitz in (which has the effect of aligning PR in the opener and at 2 min burst windows), and also during downtime.

[Shurrikhan]

I like the current monk. I wanted to main it back in the early days of ShB, but GL was such an unfain and frustrating mechanic. After they "traited" GL, I enjoyed monk, but it felt really simple. This current version is a bit more involved than late ShB, though still a bit simple. The one thing I'm still not a big fan of is the DoT on Demolish. Though it's easier to manage now, thanks to the freedom we get during PB windows, it still promotes a fairly rigid "best" gcd.

I think you'll find this sadly true of every job with any DoTs, until such time as XIV adds some manner of duration roll-over mechanic.

An idea I had on that front was moving the DoT to Six-Sided Star, and changing SSS to a normal GCD (130 Potency + DoT).

I'm not sure why people are so opposed to having finishers/pre-disengage tools... It's like people hating TK in its 4.3x heyday on principle rather than because they play at high ping. SSS only needs to be tuned faintly higher to see far more usage and it's already a decent tool.

Note also that the moment you move the DoT to SSS, your Twin Snakes simply becomes the new bottleneck, and Perfect Balance sees that much less situational usefulness (think triple-Demo for your Lunar Nadi at the start of Hydaelyn's adds/jolly ranchers phase).

Also, Anatman is still useless. What would people think of changing it into something like Sam's meditation

Slap Chakra generation and a Form Shift onto it, so that it doesn't lock out other uses of the GCD during downtime, and it basically would be that already. And I don't think you'd want to make it a server-tick channel you want to fish for, which tying further power to it would likely cause. Extra power sounds great until you're balanced down for gaining it and its usage is pure clunk (see ShB Anatman openers).

[waterboytkd]

I think you'll find this sadly true of every job with any DoTs, until such time as XIV adds some manner of duration roll-over mechanic.

Well, Sam has some flexibility in its GCD windows because of Hakagure. And GNB just sticks theirs in their buff window, since it's not part of a rotation. But I get what you mean. A duration roll-over mechanic would be really great!

I'm not sure why people are so opposed to having finishers/pre-disengage tools... It's like people hating TK in its 4.3x heyday on principle rather than because they play at high ping. SSS only needs to be tuned faintly higher to see far more usage and it's already a decent tool.

I think a big part is, if you're trying to greed GCDs, Thunderclap is going to be much better for dodging an orange circle. If you're about to head into downtime, it's fine, but that's so niche. The idea of a Finisher, too, is incredibly niche. Niche abilities can be fine, but I feel like SSS is just a bit too niche. Things like the ranged attacks on melees feel a bit better, as you're forced out enough in fights to make pretty good use of them (now that they don't break combos). I guess without a ranged attack, SSS can kinda fill that hole (if you're only out for 1 GCD). EDIT: but in the same vein, Meditate, and potentially even Form Shift are also filling that role. IDK, it seems like a lot of tools all trying to "fill downtime".

Slap Chakra generation and a Form Shift onto it, so that it doesn't lock out other uses of the GCD during downtime, and it basically would be that already. And I don't think you'd want to make it a server-tick channel you want to fish for, which tying further power to it would likely cause. Extra power sounds great until you're balanced down for gaining it and its usage is pure clunk (see ShB Anatman openers).

Yeah, I got mixed feelings now about Anatman. I saw one of your other posts where you point out that changing Anatman to open Nadi is bad because Monk is currently balanced around PR not being in burst windows, and that that's a good thing because it makes the class more resistant to de-syncing.

I think it could maybe do a little more (maybe suspend+grant Leaden Fist), but totally agree that whatever it does, it can't be optimal to fish for server ticks. The GL stack fishing was bad gameplay in my mind, and was one of the things that turned me off to monk until GL was turned into a trait.