So, anyone feel like this should have been a bigger deal...? (SPOILERS!!!)

[Iscah]

What do you mean? Elidibus was something separate because he separated himself from Zodiark. In that way, Zodiark was more like a husk. The fact that Elidibus still existed as himself instead of being completely consumed by Zodiark hints at this.

That is essentially my point. The full existence of a godlike primal's personality should not be "one pre-existing person and a husk".

Previously we were told that Elidibus was able to leave Zodiark, but not the effect on Zodiark, and reducing him to being basically useless is bizarre. (And how were they doing the third round of sacrifices while Zodiark was in useless mode and Elidibus was separate?)

It also makes Elidibus's relationship with the other Ascians even weirder. They keep going on about their one true god, but Elidibus is just there as a slightly annoying colleague.

Also, Elidibus's continued "existence as himself" only hints at Zodiark being a husk if you already believe that the heart directly persists as the personality of the primal. If the heart simply provides the base for a primal mind comprised of many souls, then that heart might be able to be removed from the primal after – and even if that does render the primal dormant, the one person acting as heart could just be a key "cog in the machine" rather than the entire engine.

And also, as I said in my previous post, it's not inconceivable (within the knowledge we held pre-EW) that Elidibus never actually separated from Zodiark at all. Rather, suppose if those arguing groups were all thinking of Elidibus and how he would resolve their argument, they might subconsciously summon (or create) a new primal in the form of Elidibus who is actually not the soul still inside the primal. Or perhaps Zodiark deliberately created him as a copy.


Also, to go back to an earlier statement...

considering the nature of even regular primals being influenced by the desires of their summoners

This is where my line of thinking is coming from. A normal primal is "influenced by the desires of their creator" but does not require any one of its summoners to act as a heart. But a much larger, planet-scale primal might need a heart because of its size, in which case the desires of the heart infuse the desires of the primal as a whole – but that still doesn't indicate that the heart becomes the primal as a hypercharged version of themself. If a small "heartless" primal develops its own mind independent of its summoners, why shouldn't a larger primal be the same?

The personality of the heart might form a strong influence on the primal, but that doesn't have to mean directly becoming them.

It's also a matter of the language they use. The Ascians created Zodiark. They did not turn Elidibus into Zodiark.

[linayar]

That is essentially my point. The full existence of a godlike primal's personality should not be "one pre-existing person and a husk".

Why not? This only reinforces how much "greater" the unsundered people were compared to the sundered.

Previously we were told that Elidibus was able to leave Zodiark, but not the effect on Zodiark, and reducing him to being basically useless is bizarre. (And how were they doing the third round of sacrifices while Zodiark was in useless mode and Elidibus was separate?)

Again, why is it bizarre? If we weren't told anything beforehand, there wasn't anything to reduce.

It also makes Elidibus's relationship with the other Ascians even weirder. They keep going on about their one true god, but Elidibus is just there as a slightly annoying colleague.

That's just the effect of the tempering. They're tempered to Zodiark, not Elidibus as a separate entity from Zodiark.

Also, Elidibus's continued "existence as himself" only hints at Zodiark being a husk if you already believe that the heart directly persists as the personality of the primal. If the heart simply provides the base for a primal mind comprised of many souls, then that heart might be able to be removed from the primal after – and even if that does render the primal dormant, the one person acting as heart could just be a key "cog in the machine" rather than the entire engine.

It's a hint in hindsight. There was no explanation of what the heart is in Shadowbringers and it was clarified in Endwalker.

And also, as I said in my previous post, it's not inconceivable (within the knowledge we held pre-EW) that Elidibus never actually separated from Zodiark at all. Rather, suppose if those arguing groups were all thinking of Elidibus and how he would resolve their argument, they might subconsciously summon (or create) a new primal in the form of Elidibus who is actually not the soul still inside the primal. Or perhaps Zodiark deliberately created him as a copy.

Well, Elidibus said he made the decision to separate himself from Zodiark (unless my memory fails me) in order to help the Ascians. That would imply this is the real Elidibus.

Also, to go back to an earlier statement...



This is where my line of thinking is coming from. A normal primal is "influenced by the desires of their creator" but does not require any one of its summoners to act as a heart. But a much larger, planet-scale primal might need a heart because of its size, in which case the desires of the heart infuse the desires of the primal as a whole – but that still doesn't indicate that the heart becomes the primal as a hypercharged version of themself. If a small "heartless" primal develops its own mind independent of its summoners, why shouldn't a larger primal be the same?

The personality of the heart might form a strong influence on the primal, but that doesn't have to mean directly becoming them.

Well, the thing is, Hydaelyn and Zodiark are definitely made differently and work differently. On a side note, I don't think either of them is "planet-sized," just on that level of power compared to normal primals.

It's also a matter of the language they use. The Ascians created Zodiark. They did not turn Elidibus into Zodiark.

Indeed, they created Zodiark and made Elidibus its heart. That's why Elidibus can still be differentiated from Zodiark, but as the heart, we only know in Endwalker what that means given the circumstances of both Hydaelyn and Zodiark.

[Iscah]

Again, why is it bizarre? If we weren't told anything beforehand, there wasn't anything to reduce.

Bizarre as a storytelling choice. The writers have chosen to make Zodiark inert and a non-entity without his heart. After so much lead-up and talk about him they have chosen to write him as basically nothing of interest.

Well, Elidibus said he made the decision to separate himself from Zodiark (unless my memory fails me) in order to help the Ascians. That would imply this is the real Elidibus.

It would imply that he thinks he's the real Elidibus, but that isn't a 100% guarantee that he really is. If memories can be implanted, a hypothetical "fake primal copy Elidibus" could have memories that come from his friends' memories of him. If anything that could be a really good explanation of why his memory is failing so badly – its not really his at all, but memories that have been added as part of the primal summoning, and that power is wearing away.

[Theodric]

Bizarre as a storytelling choice. The writers have chosen to make Zodiark inert and a non-entity without his heart. After so much lead-up and talk about him they have chosen to write him as basically nothing of interest.

I find myself wondering how much sense it even makes given that similar entities have come to exist that were treated as still being 'living beings' even if they were little more than animated husks themselves. I speak of the likes of Omega, Alpha, Eden and Meteion. Certainly the circumstances differ in each case but...even absent of Elidibus, Zodiark had a number of Ancient souls dwelling within him and given that they spoke to the Warrior of Light - albeit briefly - so I'm disinclined to write off Zodiark as truly 'mindless'.

If nothing else, I imagine it's disappointing to fans of both Zodiark and Hydaelyn to have so much of the story reduced to 'look at this cool scene, but don't think too deeply about the implications of it'.

As a Garlean fan, I couldn't help but note that pretty much everything I looked to in the lore book for inspiration in role-play and the like ended up showing up in-game with minimal alterations. However so many aspects of the story to do with Zodiark and Hydaelyn appears to have repeatedly been altered over the years.

[linayar]

Bizarre as a storytelling choice. The writers have chosen to make Zodiark inert and a non-entity without his heart. After so much lead-up and talk about him they have chosen to write him as basically nothing of interest.

Honestly, I appreciate that. Having an entity that's been imprisoned for so long suddenly be the big bad would be underwhelming.

Also, this makes Zodiark better in my eyes. Lest we forget, he was created to help the world. This makes Zodiark not be the evil one like everyone might assume, but more a tool that can be used for good or bad. That's a nice implication.

It would imply that he thinks he's the real Elidibus, but that isn't a 100% guarantee that he really is. If memories can be implanted, a hypothetical "fake primal copy Elidibus" could have memories that come from his friends' memories of him. If anything that could be a really good explanation of why his memory is failing so badly – its not really his at all, but memories that have been added as part of the primal summoning, and that power is wearing away.

I would think it's clear by the end of 5.3. Personally, I think I would actually dislike it if we learn in Endwalker that 5.3 was centered around a fake. It would also be problematic for the plot moving forward with Fandaniel's actions.