Skill Point distribution [dev1021]

[Rentahamster]

Dude, you've had at least 3 threads about this already. Why did you delete the last one? I spent a lot of time crafting my position in an organized and informative way. I already showed you how action-based SP doesn't work, and instead of furthering the debate like you promised, you just deleted the thread and all the hard work I did.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

You mention the "hate" you got in the other thread, but I was always critiquing the merits of your proposed system and never denigrated your character.

You can't just say "my idea works but I won't tell you how". That doesn't give any of us any reason to believe you.

[Laughlyn]

Dude, you've had at least 3 threads about this already. Why did you delete the last one? I spent a lot of time crafting my position in an organized and informative way. I already showed you how action-based SP doesn't work, and instead of furthering the debate like you promised, you just deleted the thread and all the hard work I did.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

You mention the "hate" you got in the other thread, but I was always critiquing the merits of your proposed system and never denigrated your character.

You can't just say "my idea works but I won't tell you how". That doesn't give any of us any reason to believe you.

lol the last one he made he flammed back & called us all stupid or something,
i was gonna reply back but before i manage to finish up my reply the Post was
locked & sent to the bottom of the endless abyss.

And btw....

I still dont like this Idea !

[ESAR]

lol the last one he made he flammed back & called us all stupid or something,
i was gonna reply back but before i manage to finish up my reply the Post was
locked & sent to the bottom of the endless abyss.

And btw....

I still dont like this Idea !

Yeah sorry bout that, I did get upset.
I didn't call you stupid, I said you'll are fighting with blind stupidity xD
The arguments that were being used were pretty much all unrelated to the system I created and no matter how many times I tried to explain it you just refused to take the time and understand what I was talking about.
You'll are idolizing the current SP system, but the current SP system is garbage.
Yeah it get's the job done, but there's a better way, some sort of action based SP. It's the only way to really bring balance.
I will argue this out with you'll, but only if you find flaws in the math to the system I presented, I'm just going to ignore you otherwise (sorry).
Of course if you really do figure out why this wouldn't work I'll bow down peacefully.
Action based SP is the way to go if we can get a solid base to the system.

[yukikaze_yanagi]

I say this: "everything related to old way of sp distribution it's the evil incarnate".
So, no thx

[Shadowskill]

This system could work, but can be seriously abused.

Those that wish to abuse the system can just as many said, keep the monster alive while spamming abilities till SP is capped. There is no incentive in killing the monster fast due to the limited SP gained for faster kills, would also limit certain classes that don't have many helpful abilities to use.

Would turn the system on itself, people will go the easiest route which would gain the most SP possible.

Now if there was a way to balance the usage of abilities to set a standard SP gain, I for one would like to see how this system would work. could be a new direction in the game.

Post the math/explanation and hopefully we can all come up with a method to increase the structure as well find flaws with the system, only true way is to work the "idea" and find/tweak/remove any flaws that may be in place.

[ESAR]

This is the base of the formula, so it has no attractive qualities yet.
(some ideas for that follow the explanation.)

Formula:

SP= ab+ac-a

(The formula was originally "SP=abc" but I found a flaw, hense the change. What I did was make all TP abilites equal, the original formula favoured only higher TP/Stamina abilites.)

If in a party, every participants SP is calculated together and split evenly.

Also, as of now SP is calculated based on highest level in the party to prevent SP manipulation in the form of having low ranks in your party buffing for exploited SP.
I was also thinking something along the lines of having ranks 5 less then the highest being rounded up to the -5 mark. This would prevent parties from wanting to maintian tight level restrictions. If the highest in a party is rank 26, everyone 20 and under would be rounded up to 21 in order to prevent expliot (This is only in respect to the SP they can gain.)


(a) Difficulty multiplier.
This is based on the enemies difficulty. An even match will yield a multiplier of 10.
The multipliers:
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,33,36,39,42,45,48...
If the difficulty of the monster increases the multiplier increases accordingly.


(b) Stamina multiplier.
This is related to the stamina used for the action being calculated. 20% is our base for this multiplier, 20% yields a 1.0 multiplier. 40% 2.0 and 80% a 4.0.


(c) TP Multiplier.
The base for this is 0TP and yields a multiplier of 1.0, every 250TP adds .25 to this value. Therefore, a skill that uses 250TP will give 1.25; a skill 1000tp, 2.0; and 2000tp, 3.0.


(I've kept "b and c" variables linear in order to balance everything and prevent exploits. Difficulty gradually increases to promote tougher battles.)


Now the equation above is "(a x b) + (a x c)- a" equals SP. let's calculate a few actions.

(Gladiator will be used for these examples.)


Light Slash:

(Used on an enemy your level)
SP=(10x1.125)+(10x1.0)-10= 11.25 or 11 SP (after rounding.)

(Used on an enemy five levels below)
SP=(5x1.125)+(5x1.0)-5= 5.625 or 6 SP (I'm just going to show rounded answers from now on.)

(Used on an enemy five levels above)
SP=(20x1.125)+(20x1.0)-20= 23 SP


Light Stab: (For this just answers)

(=)
10 SP

(-5)
5 SP

(+5)
20 SP


Circle Slash:

(=)
(10x2.25)+(10x2.0)-10= 33 SP

(-5)
(5x2.25)+(5x2.0)-5= 16 SP

(+5)
(20x2.25)+(20x2.0)-20= 65 SP


Phalanx: (costs 0 stamina, keep that in mind)

(=)
(10x0)+(10x1.25)-10 = 3 SP

(-5)
1 SP

(+5)
5 SP


Provoke:

(=)
(10x1.875)+(10x1.0)-10= 19 SP

(-5)
9 SP

(+5)
37.5 SP


So there's the basic math, it's balanced straight across the board; favours no enemy, no exploits, no actions.

I should mention, there is no need to balance this system (or at least with everyones help there shouldn't be) once an enemy is given a level, it's balanced right into the equation.


In the area of magic, I need alot more information then I possess. This part is easier left to the devs as they have all this nessasary information. I however would have to do extreme amounts of testing that I just don't have the time for sorry.



Now in the area of ways to add benefit to strategy in battle, a chain bonus for killing enemies quick and maybe some sort of effect bonus.

I think a bonus to AOE attacks would be a nice addtion as well.

Chain bonus could be a multiplier given to the basic attacks that ever so slightly increases as the bonus gets higher. Or as a lump sum given at the end of each battle.

Effect bonus could be a way to give bonus to criticals and reduce SP if attacks are resisted or blocked.

Normal unresisted blow could be 1.0 muliplier,
A critical hit 1.25 muliplier.
Half resisted 0.5 muliplier
quarter resisted 0.25.

If you power up attacks and they do above and beyond what's expected, there could be a bonus to that as well.
Raging strikes 50% damage to the attack, therefore recieves a 1.5 muliplier to SP.

An attack like phalanx for instance that is a counter attack in nature and very powerfull at that can recieve a muliplier as a bonus. Phalanx does about 4x the damage of a normal attack, so could recieve a 4.0 mulitplier.

For AOE's
Only Attack AOE's would recieve a bonus, we cannot do cures, buffs or debuff because people will exploit them.

This could easily be done by just having every connection give it's alloted SP.

[Eli_Jin]

Honestly, I believe that what ESAR's is saying (the core concept) would work rather well. It bases your experience (SP) on the experience (actions) you have in battle, with the KEY DIFFERENCE TO THE SYSTEM WE HAD AT LAUNCH BEING: "If in a party, every participants SP is calculated together and split evenly."

This way you don't have someone getting 50 SP while others get 300 SP, it's all split evenly amongst those that performed at least 1 action during the course of the fight (so on easier fights healer only needs to top off the tank once and the the healer gets SP as well, or they can simply cast a nuke or debuff or something).

In groups, this makes it so that you want to fight mobs that take more than 2 seconds to kills since you want everyone to get their shot in, but you don't have to do the crabs/efts/whatever that take forever to kill either, you can move on to the next mob if your camp has the mobs/respawn rate to support you.

This also means that if you are geared to the teeth and can 2 shot a mob that it takes someone else of the same rank 4 shots to kill, you will have to kill twice as many for the same amount of SP, which will take you slightly longer since you have to find more mobs / switch targes and all that, but this means that maybe you should fight something a little harder that does take you 4 shots to kill instead of 2. (though the trade off for killing more in less time is that you get more drops, so it could be worth it depending on the group/player).

And being geared to the teeth you still have the advantage when fighting for progression (you know, that content that is coming )instead of just SP grinding, so the incentive to min/max isn't totally lost.

ALSO

This actually caters to the player base that SE is going for (casuals) that won't be geared to the teeth. Well, not that it caters to them, but that it gives them roughly the same SP/hour (unless they pause between actions/mobs for whatever reason) that the elitists players recieve. And of course hard core players will always level faster simply because they have more time to devote.

[ESAR]

Honestly, I believe that what ESAR's is saying (the core concept) would work rather well. It bases your experience (SP) on the experience (actions) you have in battle, with the KEY DIFFERENCE TO THE SYSTEM WE HAD AT LAUNCH BEING: "If in a party, every participants SP is calculated together and split evenly."

This way you don't have someone getting 50 SP while others get 300 SP, it's all split evenly amongst those that performed at least 1 action during the course of the fight (so on easier fights healer only needs to top off the tank once and the the healer gets SP as well, or they can simply cast a nuke or debuff or something).

In groups, this makes it so that you want to fight mobs that take more than 2 seconds to kills since you want everyone to get their shot in, but you don't have to do the crabs/efts/whatever that take forever to kill either, you can move on to the next mob if your camp has the mobs/respawn rate to support you.

This also means that if you are geared to the teeth and can 2 shot a mob that it takes someone else of the same rank 4 shots to kill, you will have to kill twice as many for the same amount of SP, which will take you slightly longer since you have to find more mobs / switch targes and all that, but this means that maybe you should fight something a little harder that does take you 4 shots to kill instead of 2. (though the trade off for killing more in less time is that you get more drops, so it could be worth it depending on the group/player).

And being geared to the teeth you still have the advantage when fighting for progression (you know, that content that is coming )instead of just SP grinding, so the incentive to min/max isn't totally lost.

ALSO

This actually caters to the player base that SE is going for (casuals) that won't be geared to the teeth. Well, not that it caters to them, but that it gives them roughly the same SP/hour (unless they pause between actions/mobs for whatever reason) that the elitists players recieve. And of course hard core players will always level faster simply because they have more time to devote.

Thank the lord! Someone gets it!

See this here, I'm not trying to destroy the game like you all seem to think

TYTYTY

[Unowned]

this used to be similar to the system on game release, nobody played their role, just wanted max sp. You need a system so players play their role in a party, so just tweak the current system

[Laughlyn]

um i hate to point out, but how can you claim current SP system is crap...
after i found your character & information about your last gained achievements...
wich were 24-10-2010??

Link:
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...cicuid=2880775
(And no there's not many players with that name....)

It's no wonder people are argueing back at this since you obviously havent
even bothered trying the updated "SP Gain" system, how can anyone take this seriously when
you base this new concept on the old system?

I suggest you re-evaluate your suggestion based upon current gameplay.
Try FFXIV again before making assumptions instead of facts.

The current SP gain system might not be perfect but it's far from broken or unfair.