Addersgall idea for when you are capped but have no-one to heal

[Risvertasashi]

If the party survives, then what is the issue here? Besides a lot of healers DON'T play SCH that way or even have ED on their hotbar and will overheal anyway.

Who cares if it's balanced around? If the party isn't dying then again what's the issue if a player is trying to maximize damage? Obviously a smart player wouldn't be doing that if the party is taking a lot of damage and won't survive. There is nothing wrong about spending excess resources during downtime, which is good design in my opinion.

Besides, if your damage output becomes an expectation and you are being excluded or harassed over it, there's a system in place to penalize that so it's a moot point.

Never once has it been an issue to optimize. That's a strawman argument no one is making.

Of course it's good to optimize. Please do optimize and do damage.

But there is a problem at a system design level when a game that emphasizes damage output so much contests DPS resources with healing resources. Scholar has this problem, Sage does not have the problem, and I'd really prefer it not be introduced to sage.

Look at it another way. It doesn't cost a tank anything to pop Rampart or (insert job-flavored 30% mitigation here). And that's a good thing. If it cost DPS for tanks to pop their mitigation, they'd try to avoid that. Well meaning tanks would incorrectly gauge when they could get away with no CDs, and bad tanks just wouldn't care. And of course (as was once the case with the old tank/DPS stances), all tanks would want to be off tanks.

Same thing applies to healers. If you can spend Aetherflow on damage or healing, you'll always want to go for damage and it will feel bad to lose damage for healing. Addersgall doesn't have this problem and doesn't need this problem and sage has excellent damage output anyways.

[Alcimus]

If the party survives, then what is the issue here? Besides a lot of healers DON'T play SCH that way or even have ED on their hotbar and will overheal anyway.

Who cares if it's balanced around? If the party isn't dying then again what's the issue if a player is trying to maximize damage? Obviously a smart player wouldn't be doing that if the party is taking a lot of damage and won't survive. There is nothing wrong about spending excess resources during downtime, which is good design in my opinion.

Besides, if your damage output becomes an expectation and you are being excluded or harassed over it, there's a system in place to penalize that so it's a moot point.

There, we hit the important part, its based on opinion and perception. In your opinion its good to allow the player to have the decision to use their healing resources to deal damage and I would agree except for the perception of the playerbase. In my opinion its a moral hazard to have the cooldown based resources for a healer to be usable for damage, cause then people expect it to be used that way and many will not use their heals because...

Enrages are a thing. Healers are expected to contribute in damage, when playing at a high level. This is true in every RPG.

you are trying to argue both for and against your own arguments

[Hezzlocks]

No, it's just really dumb to make a system where people spend all their resources on damage, and then resent any time they have to hold it for healing instead.

It's also unpleasant to heal with a lot of scholars (and really any coheal that won't stop DPSing when more healing/recovery is needed) because of stuff like that.

This. Please keep healing and dps resources separate. I'm not saying a healer shouldn't have a dps rotation with resource management, but surely we can think of a way to have an engaging DPS game without having to tie healing resources into it, right?

Even if you tied Addersgall into Addersting, it wouldn't improve Sages DPS game anyway. Toxikon... isn't that special. You can use it while moving and you can use it as an AoE. It also costs no MP. But beyond that it's still not any different from Dosis spam.

How about instead of trying to figure out how to turn healing into Dosis-while-moving, we look into the fundamental flaw of healers in general, that being a lack of engaging gameplay during downtime. And, to me, there's two ways to tackle that. One, make healing a more active role, more healing required means less downtime to notice how bad dosis spam feels, and would promote cooperation between healers as they share out the workload.

Or, two, give healers some more DPS abilities so that they can have their own rotation to follow during downtime, complete with a DPS resource system. Wouldn't it be more interesting if WHM had several DPS spells, which successful completion of a DPS rotation would generate a Blood Lily? Wouldn't it be more interesting if Sage had more pewpew laser spells that generated Addersting and also had different effects on the Kardia target that wasn't just strictly healing?

[Connor]

No, it's just really dumb to make a system where people spend all their resources on damage, and then resent any time they have to hold it for healing instead.

It's also unpleasant to heal with a lot of scholars (and really any coheal that won't stop DPSing when more healing/recovery is needed) because of stuff like that.

This really sums it up better than I could.

Also, an even if we did have an Addersgall dps dump, it would be an oGCD anyway to balance with Energy Drain, so you’d still be spamming Dosis III exactly the same the now. The only difference would be you’d be losing a ton of dps potency every time you hit an Addersgall heal, which would just mean Sages stopped using them. You wouldn’t even be using your Addersgalls for some tactical decision making exercise, you’d be stocking them up to three and blowing them all every 120 seconds during raid buffs.

Even if the situation did call for it, somehow I don’t think many Sages would really stop and say ‘maybe I should use one of these stacks to heal even though it’s going to lower my damage purely because one of the dps decided to mess up’.

Maybe it does make me a ‘I just want to heal!’ Sylphie, honestly I can live with that lol. But, I don’t think any healer job should be punished for having to heal. It just doesn’t make any sense. Give them damage rotations, damage related spells and abilities, interactions between healing and damage. I have no issue with any of that. But mechanics that specifically punish you for using your heals as a healer just doesn’t make any sense to me.

Nobody is saying that healers shouldn’t have more dps options or whatever. But making healer mechanics that are ‘choose between healing and damage’ ends up being purely illusory, because there is no choice. You choose damage or you chose wrong. While something definitely does need to be done about healer downtime, developing mechanics like that isn’t the right way to go about it in my opinion

[Alcimus]

This. Please keep healing and dps resources separate. I'm not saying a healer shouldn't have a dps rotation with resource management, but surely we can think of a way to have an engaging DPS game without having to tie healing resources into it, right?

Even if you tied Addersgall into Addersting, it wouldn't improve Sages DPS game anyway. Toxikon... isn't that special. You can use it while moving and you can use it as an AoE. It also costs no MP. But beyond that it's still not any different from Dosis spam.

How about instead of trying to figure out how to turn healing into Dosis-while-moving, we look into the fundamental flaw of healers in general, that being a lack of engaging gameplay during downtime. And, to me, there's two ways to tackle that. One, make healing a more active role, more healing required means less downtime to notice how bad dosis spam feels, and would promote cooperation between healers as they share out the workload.

Or, two, give healers some more DPS abilities so that they can have their own rotation to follow during downtime, complete with a DPS resource system. Wouldn't it be more interesting if WHM had several DPS spells, which successful completion of a DPS rotation would generate a Blood Lily? Wouldn't it be more interesting if Sage had more pewpew laser spells that generated Addersting and also had different effects on the Kardia target that wasn't just strictly healing?

this this so much this, why try to tie in the healing resources to dealing damage when instead just a more interesting DPS kit could be added to the healers. For example Restoration Shaman from WoW in expansions past (stopped playing at the end of Legion) had a spammable (lightning bolt) a dot (Flame Lash), a heavy hitting long cast (Lava Burst), aoe (Chain Lightning), and interactions between them (eg: chance for Lava Burst to became instant cast on Flame Lash damage).

[Satarn]

I like the idea of an ability that's simply converting Adder's Gall into an Adder's Sting + some MP. Yeah, it could be a damage gain in AoE, but on trash pulls you actually need the Adder's Gall healing abilities usually, so it shouldn't be that much of an issue, especially since most DPS-focused Sages will most likely already get their Sting stacks from shielding during pull and later on it's much better to use the Adder heals than have to gcd.

In boss fights it would just be a nice way to get extra mobility when there's no need to gcd shield, so I doubt it would be spammed as much as ED, if people are so afraid of it.

I'm not partial to just letting SGE apply more ogcds shields with it, because that makes the gcd ones even more useless than they usually are in this game.

[DubiousDisk]

Anyone else find it weird how hostile that guy got from the jump?