Class uniqueness [dev1032]

[Honz]

Yes classes definitely need more definition as of now I feel like all the DD classes play the same way sometimes even use the exact same gear (arc and pug) (mrd and lnc). My gf plays both the conj and thm classes and even then thm is better of using conj spells with the exception of shadow sear. Point is we need more class specific skills like the lnc surges. Even the current r50 skills are not much to speak of.

[ESAR]

I just hope Yoshi-P has a vision with this game. Otherwise only taking the ideas of players and putting them together will cause for a failed vision and game x.x

Your right, I hear that. It's good to give some insight into what we all consider to be the game that we want, gives them ideas. If it's stuff they haven't heard they might use it, or a variation of it.

My problem is I can't see the problems I"m having until after I've figured out what would fix them lol.
It sounds like they understand that people think like this, that's why I hope they're going to look past things like an auto-attack and auction house, figure out what's missing and work with that knowledge.

Go vision of Yoshi-P!

[Linnear]

Should all classes require the same volume of input?

If I have to hit 20 ish buttons on lnc a min, do I also need to hit 20 ish buttons at similer intervals as pug?

Do all classes need to use the same resource? is stam/mp/tp really required for everyone?

If your class is designated by your weapon IE magic in staves and swords, guard in shields etc, why can I cast cure with EVERY sword? and why can't I cast cure with a sword as a mage ? I know this sounds silly but it is a pseudo serious question, it seems that the lore of the system seems laking to me. Right now it feels like SE has an armoury system that defines the universe, but doesn't give any lore behind it. Here is a staff, with it you can cast magic, here is a pair of kncuckles, with it you can guar, and punch, but if you have ever picked up a staff, they can heal you as well? this just seems odd. If there were special knuckles that allowed you to access a certain amount of abilities of other classes, like these knuckles arn't as hard as other types but are imbued with certian magics which allow you to access known magical talet. Without stuff like this it just seems like a whacky universe and
un FF like.

[ESAR]

Should all classes require the same volume of input?

If I have to hit 20 ish buttons on lnc a min, do I also need to hit 20 ish buttons at similer intervals as pug?

Absolutely not, I'm believe very strongly that they need to change the attack speeds and add some variation if the current style of fighting is going to be successful.

Do all classes need to use the same resource? is stam/mp/tp really required for everyone?

Here I think it would be wiser if we did. It would take alot of the balancing issues out. But alas my good buddy shed some light into his point of view on this. You can't take out MP, it's just so final fantasy. lol

This doesn't change the fact that we do not need TP, it's just getting in the way. If anything I believe they should change attack speeds and have basic attacks use less stamina. Rather then building TP with them, give some sort of bonus for opening up attacks.

If your class is designated by your weapon IE magic in staves and swords, guard in shields etc, why can I cast cure with EVERY sword? and why can't I cast cure with a sword as a mage ? I know this sounds silly but it is a pseudo serious question, it seems that the lore of the system seems laking to me. Right now it feels like SE has an armoury system that defines the universe, but doesn't give any lore behind it. Here is a staff, with it you can cast magic, here is a pair of kncuckles, with it you can guar, and punch, but if you have ever picked up a staff, they can heal you as well? this just seems odd. If there were special knuckles that allowed you to access a certain amount of abilities of other classes, like these knuckles arn't as hard as other types but are imbued with certian magics which allow you to access known magical talet. Without stuff like this it just seems like a whacky universe and
un FF like.

It's not a problem with the lore it all makes sense. You use a sword you fight with a sword, you use a septre with magic, it increases your ability to wield magic. The Problem is the execution.
This is why I think all bars should be combined into stamina. It fits right in with lore.
Yeah I can use magic with my sword, but it's going to take alot out of me, therefore I'm not going to want to use much magic.
If however my sword was imbued with some special ruby or empowered crystal I would use less stamina because this ruby would help me cast my magic.

I'm just saying, it's the THM weapon that makes them particularly good at magic, to get better as GLA I should need a special weapon with powers like THM. I'd never be as good because that's what they do, but it wouldn't be as hard for me anymore.

Seriously I see so much good coming from combining all three bars in the way of helping class uniqueness.

It's the future, I think the right thing is to combine them all into one, actions would be better balanced and we could focus on the feel of battle rather then these arbitrary bars.

[Shikyo]

I feel a drastic class re-haul is needed. Few of the classes have a particular focus or concept.

In FFXI a thief was a thief, you stole things and used skills with an emphasis on the concept of 'trickery'. In FFXIV the main difference between melee jobs is the weapon you use, which quickly becomes a trivial issue. Besides that, originally on the official websites (prior to release) there was an emphasis on range, each job had a range it was meant to stand at; pugilists the closest, archers the furthest. While this isn't exactly the foundation for a class system with highly unique classes it at least separated them somewhat. However, due to lack of crowd control, your class's ideal 'range' doesn't amount to an awful lot.

Often there's the argument that you 'make your own class' by using the skill system, with paladin (glad+conj) being the cited example. This doesn't exactly stand up either, you can make a paladin but 'subjob' abilities have longer recasts and only conj/thau can restore their mp (though I think they announced introduction of natural mp regen recently?). However, what class can I make with Archer? I don't, I just tack on healing abilities so that I can solo. I'm a paladin with a bow I suppose?

To summarise on classes, I think the classes just need their 'concept' rethinking. "Wields a spear" doesn't strike me as a concept, which is probably why the current idea of a 'unique' skill for a DD class is the same ability 10 times with either a different aoe shape (archer) or a different status effect tacked on (all melee classes).

As for general combat mechanics, FFXIV sits in a weird place. It's like it can't make its mind up if it wants to be a button masher or an final fantasy rpg game. We mash 1 until we can hit maybe a 2 or 3, possibly hitting 9 or 0 before the 2 or 3 if we're feeling fancy. If it wants to be a button masher then we need controls to reflect that, make dodging easier, get rid of the nervous twitching that is active and passive mode. If they want to be more tactical we need to look at less commands per second but each command having more emphasis/importance. Possibly look at a variation on the ATB system. At the moment we have a button basher with tactical rpg style controls and it's not a good combination.

Agreed nuff a over haul of the class system is needed make this game worthy of being called final fantasy wtf are the classes...and the combat system should be a variation on XI's and for god sake after you do the leves for the day all you can do is craft bring freaking party machanics in so ppl can have fun in exp partys ...

[ESAR]

Agreed nuff a over haul of the class system is needed make this game worthy of being called final fantasy wtf are the classes...and the combat system should be a variation on XI's and for god sake after you do the leves for the day all you can do is craft bring freaking party machanics in so ppl can have fun in exp partys ...

There's a thread I posted here about action based skill point distribution. It's each attack but the idea behind it was to open anything as a valid target thus bringing back rewarding SP parties.

Rather then having us determine enemies based on hp/def which results in the highest sp per hour. Sp would only be effected by fighting tougher battles. It's similar to the original system scratch the randomness. If you have any questions I'll answer them on that thread. I'll post a link later but I'm on my phone, it's too sloppy.

This would give you exactly what youre looking for though cause I'm looking for thy same thing and this is the best solution I can come up with.

The current system of sp is too hard to balance which is causing this problem.

The system they created sought to eliminate this but a major change to the game unbalanced the attack based sp.

Heres the link:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...bution-dev1021

[paulscott]

You could change the cross class skill penalty.

For instance a thm/conj using each other skills wouldn't have a damage/duration penalty, but they would have a cool down penalty. While an archer would have the damage penalty. Other classes would have other different penalties like cast-duration, extra cast cost, and/or a fail chance.

[Psytic]

Well if they are stoping expansions for good for FFXI then this game will HAVE to have some major class and combat similarities if it expects to keep those subscribers. Obviously the plan is to get those people to roll over to this game and what better way to make the transition painless by adding Samurais, Ninjas, Dragoons etc and similar class mechanics.