Keep NFT out of FF14

[Kakure]

NFT'S are bad because they will be used to monetize the game in greedy ways.
A) A company that is greedy and doesn't care about it's users will always find a way to work them over. Don't blame the technology for bad business practices. NFT's are just digital containers. I get the lack of trust in game companies but once again this has nothing to do with the tech. You can make the slippery slope argument here but that just makes you come across as a technophobe.

NFTs are just digital containers the same way that meme is just a generic term for cultural mimicry and Woodstock is just a town in New York.

NFTs are not some promising technology that just happens to be involved with speculative bubble investing somewhere *waves hand airily* over there. Silly people handing away their money in an orgy of overheated speculative investing is the whole point. That is the only reason we are having this conversation. Were none of that taking place, no serious person thinks that the president of SE would have released a letter crowing about the potential of some technology no one even seems to be able to come up with a real use for (in the gaming space, at least).

As I said before, you are the ONLY person here talking about NFTs as value-neutral containers. Whether that is an act of bad faith or you really just don't get what everyone else is talking about, this whole kerfuffle is about gaming companies jumping on the NFT bandwagon because they see people paying obscene sums of money for NFTs of digital art or video clips and want to cash in themselves. Their frenzied efforts to make NFT gaming a real thing is not a downstream indicator of corporate greed or malintention: it IS the scam.

If we stopped televangelists from preying on vulnerable older people the way they do, they might very well find a new con. That's not a valid defense of the con in front of us and it is certainly not reassuring to all of us who are going to be impacted by it even if we ourselves recognize it for the scam it is.

NFT's are bad because they have no value or are a scam
A) one of the worst arguments. An NFT is just a digital container. It can be used to contain any digital item. From art to identity documents. The value of an NFT depends if there is a market. This is true for any goods that exists in a market. Something having a market and being subject to supply and demand does not make it a scam, just a tradeable good like everything else.

That's utter nonsense. "Markets determine value" is the Microecon 101 answer, but in the real world we have copious referents against which we can judge the value of a thing. I can say with utter certainty that used tin cans are effectively worthless. If A stoops down and picks one up and says to B "I'll trade you this used tin can for your car," I can say without hesitation that it's a bad deal because one of those things has value and the other doesn't. If B agrees to the trade, it doesn't mean that used tin can is now worth a car. It means that B is a numskull who traded a thing with value for a thing without value.

And when someone pays millions of dollars for an NFT of a tweet, we're very much in "I'll give you a used tin can for your car" territory.

The good news for anyone who just Googled "What is an NFT?" and is despairing for humanity is that the vast majority of people purchasing NFTs are speculative investors. They understand that it's a scam, but they believe their investment will appreciate and they are gambling that they can get out before the bubble bursts. Even someone who says they think that an NFT of a tweet or a clipart rock has real value is probably lying, either in service of the scam (speculators have to hype their speculative investments to new speculators, after all, or the whole thing will just collapse) or because they are laundering money.

As for the one person somewhere who both has access to half a million dollars AND thinks that an NFT of an ape sketch is worth that... I guess that's just financial Darwinism or something. Every now and again the universe gives birth to a three-legged gazelle who is sexually attracted to lions. It's disturbing to watch, but maybe NFTs are just nature's way of ensuring the orderly transfer of money away from those who are dispositionally unfit to possess money.

NFTs' will never work because SE won't release the copyright
A) If SE was interested in doing NFT's they would sit down with their lawyers and amend the EULA. NFT's would be done with their permission. Nobody has to release any copyright.

Agreed. That wasn't ever an argument against NFTs though. It was people pointing out that your framing of NFTs as a way to free us from the way FFXIV works by giving us full legal ownership over our items just... isn't how any of this actually works.

NFT's are bad because you don't own anything, the company does.
A) This is dependent on the blockchain used to create the NFT. If that NFT exists on chain and not a centralized SE server then you would have ownership once purchased. What's nuts about this argument is that people have no problem sinking $100's into mogstation that is centrally controlled. Suddenly ownership matters when it comes to NFT's. lol.

As with the above, I think what you are referring to here was a response to your argument and not an independent attack on NFTs. No one is really saying that NFTs are bad because you don't own them. They're just saying that "NFTs give you real ownership in your items" isn't a valid argument for NFTs in games.

NFT's are bad because they are bad for the environment
A) Just no, does anybody really believe this?

Others have done an admirable job on this one, but let me put this in very simple terms:

Right now, there is some amount of processing involved when you do stuff with your items in FFXIV. If each of those items also had an external certificate of dubious worth, checking and updating that certificate would require more processing than is involved now. If every item in every game were an NFT, there would be lots and LOTS and LOTS of extraneous processing.

That's not to say that everything that consumes energy is bad. But it is a pretty solid reason to keep NFTs way the hell away from gaming if there's no benefit at all to including them.

[Mysticp]

Would it be fair to counter your friends anecdotal lived experience with my own? Or would that just be appealing to emotion rather than actual data

Ha, that's fair. NFT's are not the solve all solution for digital artists. There is lots of work that needs to be done on that front. If you have experience creating an NFT marketplace for your work then that would be interesting to hear.

[Mysticp]

NFTs are just digital containers the same way that meme

As I said before, you are the ONLY person here talking about NFTs as value-neutral containers. Whether that is an act of bad faith or you really just don't get what everyone else is talking about, this whole kerfuffle is about gaming companies jumping on the NFT bandwagon because they see people paying obscene sums of money for NFTs of digital art or video clips and want to cash in themselves. Their frenzied efforts to make NFT gaming a real thing is not a downstream indicator of corporate greed or malintention: it IS the scam.

That's utter nonsense. "Markets determine value" is the Microecon 101 answer, but in the real world we have copious referents against which we can judge the value of a thing. I can say with utter certainty that used tin cans are effectively worthless. If A stoops down and picks one up and says to B "I'll trade you this used tin can for your car," I can say without hesitation that it's a bad deal because one of those things has value and the other doesn't. If B agrees to the trade, it doesn't mean that used tin can is now worth a car. It means that B is a numskull who traded a thing with value for a thing without value.

And when someone pays millions of dollars for an NFT of a tweet, we're very much in "I'll give you a used tin can for your car" territory.

I get that people are concerned about the business practices that can be taken. I think people have every right to be skeptical however this has nothing do with the underlying technology of NFT's. If any company puts in practices that negatively impact gameplay or are unjust then defy them with your wallet. Nobody is making you buy anything and not buying sends a clear message.

As to your example between person A and person B with the tin cans: I see nothing wrong. If someone came up to me with a tin can and wanted me to buy it and I had no need for a tin can I would tell them to go away. If I for some reason wanted a tin can I would make them an offer. It's very curious that people think that just because you see no use in something that it's a scam. People really don't understand what the word scam means. If I wanted a tin can I as the buyer can set the price if there is no other demand. I can pay $1 for my tin can or $10 million. Either way, nobody got scammed. If I offered $1 for a tin can and got a cardboard cut out of a can then that would be a scam as I did not get what I wanted. Also, speculative investments are not a scam. I am again just purchasing a good with a fluctuating value. Most people try to make a profit on any item that they sell however sometimes you take a loss. This is life. Nobody got scammed because the value of something moved in the wrong direction.

[ApolloGenX]

I get that people are concerned about the business practices that can be taken. I think people have every right to be skeptical however this has nothing do with the underlying technology of NFT's. If any company puts in practices that negatively impact gameplay or are unjust then defy them with your wallet. Nobody is making you buy anything and not buying sends a clear message.

As to your example between person A and person B with the tin cans: I see nothing wrong. If someone came up to me with a tin can and wanted me to buy it and I had no need for a tin can I would tell them to go away. If I for some reason wanted a tin can I would make them an offer. It's very curious that people think that just because you see no use in something that it's a scam. People really don't understand what the word scam means. If I wanted a tin can I as the buyer can set the price if there is no other demand. I can pay $1 for my tin can or $10 million. Either way, nobody got scammed. If I offered $1 for a tin can and got a cardboard cut out of a can then that would be a scam as I did not get what I wanted. Also, speculative investments are not a scam. I am again just purchasing a good with a fluctuating value. Most people try to make a profit on any item that they sell however sometimes you take a loss. This is life. Nobody got scammed because the value of something moved in the wrong direction.

There is a difference between arguing against NFTs as a valid concept... and saying this game is not an appropriate avenue. I have no problems with NFTs... just not in this game.

Take for example your tin can. Ok, a tin can isn't a scam, sure.... but that doesn't mean it can't be used in one. You are assuming symmetry of information. That is not the case with NFTs.

For example: (Not to give ideas)... but kids at school play FFXIV. Ok, let's say one of them gets some kind of NFT. Great. Now the kid gets tired of it... and instead hypes it to his friend... or maybe someone he isn't friends with... maybe even puts social pressure on him/her and casts them as a "newb" or something worse (cause kids, right?)... so the kid asks his parents for the NFT for his bday. Kid one agrees to sell it to him for a huge profit. Parents don't know what the heck it is, it's an in game item that little kid says is so important... sure let's get it for him. (Who says THEY know the difference between this and the Mog Store?)

That's a potential scam or at least pump n dump scheme that could easily happen. This is why I have ethical issues with it in THIS context.

This is an avenue of trading that is not so different from speculative markets and the lack of information/education around it leaves it open to bad actors.

I am all for investing and teaching kids and adults about responsible investment. Mixing investment rules with entertainment and speculative values is unethical in this avenue, imo.

[Mysticp]

There is a difference between arguing against NFTs as a valid concept... and saying this game is not an appropriate avenue. I have no problems with NFTs... just not in this game.

Take for example your tin can. Ok, a tin can isn't a scam, sure.... but that doesn't mean it can't be used in one. You are assuming symmetry of information. That is not the case with NFTs.

For example: (Not to give ideas)... but kids at school play FFXIV. Ok, let's say one of them gets some kind of NFT. Great. Now the kid gets tired of it... and instead hypes it to his friend... or maybe someone he isn't friends with... maybe even puts social pressure on him/her and casts them as a "newb" or something worse (cause kids, right?)... so the kid asks his parents for the NFT for his bday. Kid one agrees to sell it to him for a huge profit. Parents don't know what the heck it is, it's an in game item that little kid says is so important... sure let's get it for him. (Who says THEY know the difference between this and the Mog Store?)

That's a potential scam or at least pump n dump scheme that could easily happen. This is why I have ethical issues with it in THIS context.

This is an avenue of trading that is not so different from speculative markets and the lack of information/education around it leaves it open to bad actors.

I am all for investing and teaching kids and adults about responsible investment. Mixing investment rules with entertainment and speculative values is unethical in this avenue, imo.

There will always be bad actors. In your example since the parents are asked for the money then it would be up to them to do their due diligence. What is the item? what markets does it trade on? and is it a fair trade? If they did not have time to do this then deny the child until they do. If the child has their own money to buy the item then the parents should teach them how to do this due diligence on their own. Nothing wrong with a parent deciding to not allow purchases until they are confident in the child's ability to discern. Additionally, parental controls are something that can also be added.

[ItMe]

snip

We were having a conversation, but after I dropped this with some sauce

Even biased crypto positive spaces like BeingCrypto outline a non-negligible impact,

you proceeded to post (checks) 10 times on this thread and have responded to nearly everyone but me.

I feel blanked, but I am still hungry for your sources that shows NFT's have a benign carbon footprint.
This issue is really stressing me out.
I want to change my mind.
I want to be convinced there is nothing to worry about.
Please share your data.

[Mysticp]

We were having a conversation, but after I dropped this with some sauce

you proceeded to post (checks) 10 times on this thread and have responded to nearly everyone but me.

I feel blanked, but I am still hungry for your sources that shows NFT's have a benign carbon footprint.
This issue is really stressing me out.
I want to change my mind.
I want to be convinced there is nothing to worry about.
Please share your data.

Truth be told you will find very little on data. That article from the Verge made this point by saying the following:
When someone makes, buys, or sells an NFT using Ethereum, they’re responsible for some of the emissions generated by those miners. What’s still up for debate is whether NFTs are significantly increasing emissions from Ethereum or if they’re just taking on responsibility for emissions that would have been generated by miners anyway. Without NFTs, miners would still be plugging away at puzzles and polluting. And NFTs are still a relatively small portion of all Ethereum transactions.

Figuring out the culpability of NFTs is a little like calculating your share of emissions from a commercial plane flight, according to Joseph Pallant, founder of the nonprofit Blockchain for Climate Foundation. If you’re on the plane, you’re obviously responsible for a portion of its emissions. But if you hadn’t bought the ticket, the plane probably would have taken off with other passengers and polluted the same amount anyway.
----
However as stated in my previous claim if you are worried about this I would not be. The insignificant impact of NFT will be reduced by several factors as most NFTs are on ETH. ETH is currently Proof of work and intensive in it's use. However, later this year it will move to proof of stake and be far more environmentally friendly.

[Araxes]

Yeah i really do not want NFT nonsense in the Game. Not only will its reputation suffer heavily but it will also take time away from the designers for good things.

[ItMe]

Thank you for responding.

And NFTs are still a relatively small portion of all Ethereum transactions.

This part is pretty disingenuous though.
It's a relatively small portion of all Ethereum transactions... because Ethereum is used for far more than NFTs.
That's like saying "Pickles are a relatively small portion of cash money transactions." That's true, but doesn't indicate how much people are or are not buying pickles.

Even IF NFT's had a smaller footprint (which I guess we just can't fully know at this time so we should really not be going all in on it until we know it's safe) they will not have a small footprint collectively. As I mentioned in another post, even if SQEX made a single NFT of Y'shtola and only 1% of the playerbase bought it, early research indicates that would still consumes over 650 years worth of energy vs what an individual can make living in the EU.
And we can expect that they are going to be making more than a single NFT.
We can expect that their unknown impact, magnified by volume, WILL BE BIG.

However as stated in my previous claim if you are worried about this I would not be.

I wish I could share this perspective with you, but the most I discuss NFT's the worse I realize they are.

[StouterTaru]

I've asked you this before, what value would doing this add? being wasteful and pointless is enough reason to be against nfts, nevermind any of the other stuff that people are understanably concerned about.
Unless adding an nft improves a system enough to justify its addition, it has no business being added.

This is a good question and really depends on what route SE takes. NFT's can stored on chain or off chain. If SE decides so they could store the NFT on a non centralized SE sever and allow ownership of the items you purchase. This would be in agreement with SE similar to you being able to sell Magic cards if you buy them. This would allow you to keep the item in the event of a server shutdown.

Why would that matter? I can see people saying 'if the server shuts down then they have no value!'. This is incorrect. People like to collect things and not only that NFTs can have integrations outside of their originating game such as:

The ability for user generated content - SE mentioned this in their post when they mentioned 'play for fun' players. This was not a dig at the player base like many have said. From a company point of view they see players separated into two groups: Play for fun, Play to create/earn. It would be neat to have a talented artist submit an NFT outfit to SE and then be able to make a percentage of the sale for example. An NFT would be the best vehicle for this due to the ability to assign ownership and be separate from SE main items.

Cross game integrations: This could allow SE the ability to make it so that when you purchase an NFT, say an outfit, that outfit may provide you with a similar outfit in another game or the NFT might be able to be imported and broken down into crafting components in another game. SE could also work with other game dev's on integrations if they wanted to as well.

Q: What benefit do NFTs add over the current system
A: 4 paragraphs of things NFts wouldn't be required to add, or make easier