Mods and cheat engine

[Midareyukki]

I'd like to figure out what peoples' opinions on this is...

If it's cheating to use ACT's bot that gives players mechanic callouts, which are themselves limited and only really get into specifics when stuff is on the players' screen already (if at all), then would static members giving callouts to people also be considered cheating?

One is an automated process, the other is you bothering someone to give you the layout for you. Both accomplish the same thing, and you still need to know how to resolve the mechanic on both.

Is it not more cumbersome to, say... and taking something easy that a lot of people have done... take Construct 7's math thing. There are people with dyscalculia, and I do know someone whose issue was so severe she had issues clearing TEA's Limit Cut because she couldn't count. She had to resort to shapes rather than counting dots. When farming the Lighthouse, I had to resolve my own math mechanic and also look at her number and health in advance to tell her which number she had to go. And on one run, I had to do it for her and someone else who wasn't getting the mechanic. And I don't use voice chat, I had to type everything in.

Sure, it's a third party tool and that's a no-no. But if it's just to call mechanics out for people and give them a heads up on what they have to do, is it really cheating? Especially when you can replace it with other people, making it cumbersome for others to do so? Yeah, yeah, you're meant to go through content on your own... but let's be honest, even high-end raiders do call-outs. As I said: on both occasions, you still need to know how the mechanic is resolved. So you're really just automating the process, I assume.

[Raoabolic]

I'd like to figure out what peoples' opinions on this is...

If it's cheating to use ACT's bot that gives players mechanic callouts, which are themselves limited and only really get into specifics when stuff is on the players' screen already (if at all), then would static members giving callouts to people also be considered cheating?

One is an automated process, the other is you bothering someone to give you the layout for you. Both accomplish the same thing, and you still need to know how to resolve the mechanic on both.

Is it not more cumbersome to, say... and taking something easy that a lot of people have done... take Construct 7's math thing. There are people with dyscalculia, and I do know someone whose issue was so severe she had issues clearing TEA's Limit Cut because she couldn't count. She had to resort to shapes rather than counting dots. When farming the Lighthouse, I had to resolve my own math mechanic and also look at her number and health in advance to tell her which number she had to go. And on one run, I had to do it for her and someone else who wasn't getting the mechanic. And I don't use voice chat, I had to type everything in.

Sure, it's a third party tool and that's a no-no. But if it's just to call mechanics out for people and give them a heads up on what they have to do, is it really cheating? Especially when you can replace it with other people, making it cumbersome for others to do so? Yeah, yeah, you're meant to go through content on your own... but let's be honest, even high-end raiders do call-outs. As I said: on both occasions, you still need to know how the mechanic is resolved. So you're really just automating the process, I assume.

One is a cheat in the fact that it slaps overlay over the screen telling you exactly where to go. The second is kind of lame but not that uncommon, especially when your ACT layout is just some guy avoiding mechanics while telling the new guy where to run to. Depending on the call out guy's day and energy your ACT might not run so fast. lol

[HyoMinPark]

One is a cheat in the fact that it slaps overlay over the screen telling you exactly where to go. The second is kind of lame but not that uncommon, especially when your ACT layout is just some guy avoiding mechanics while telling the new guy where to run to. Depending on the call out guy's day and energy your ACT might not run so fast. lol

ACT text-to-speech triggers—which is what Midareyukki seems to be primarily taking about—do not put any overlays on your screen. It’s just a voice in your ear saying something like “Dynamo > Chariot” or “Left”/“Right”. You are thinking of something completely different, and something that a decent number of raiders are actually not okay with (the untelegraphed AOEs suddenly becoming telegraphed). The text-to-speech triggers are no different than a voice in Discord calling them out to you.

Personally, I don’t consider text-to-speech triggers cheating since one still needs to understand and execute the mechanic. I don’t see how ACT telling me “Dynamo > Thermo” is any different than a static leader saying “Dynamo into Thermo” outside of removing human error/processing delays. The ACT triggers simply read the battle log and relay the information to you as an audio cue.

[Raoabolic]

ACT text-to-speech triggers—which is what Midareyukki seems to be primarily taking about—do not put any overlays on your screen. It’s just a voice in your ear saying something like “Dynamo > Chariot” or “Left”/“Right”. You are thinking of something completely different, and something that a decent number of raiders are actually not okay with (the untelegraphed AOEs suddenly becoming telegraphed). The text-to-speech triggers are no different than a voice in Discord calling them out to you.

Personally, I don’t consider text-to-speech triggers cheating since one still needs to understand and execute the mechanic. I don’t see how ACT telling me “Dynamo > Thermo” is any different than a static leader saying “Dynamo into Thermo” outside of removing human error/processing delays. The ACT triggers simply read the battle log and relay the information to you as an audio cue.

I see your point, I assumed it was like DBM from WoW. I guess it all boils down to is if a computer is telling you or a person telling you. A call out script will never miss a beat, a person calling it out is no different from a leader commanding troops. At worst if a bad call is made the commander will look pretty silly, lol.

[LittleImp]

I'd like to figure out what peoples' opinions on this is...

If it's cheating to use ACT's bot that gives players mechanic callouts, which are themselves limited and only really get into specifics when stuff is on the players' screen already (if at all), then would static members giving callouts to people also be considered cheating?

Cactbot can:
1. Solve mechanics that aren't visible on the client yet.
2. Solve mechanics with a less than 10ms reaction time.
3. Compile a series of mechanical queues taking place over a long time, and then provide a solution to a later mechanic, removing the need for anyone to remember anything
4. Make calculations based on Entity coordinates which tell you where to stand.
5. Can provide 8 separate callouts to 8 different people simultaneously.
6. Works out of the box with no practice or prog.

This is not at all comparable to a human shotcaller, who cannot do many of those things, and also has to spend prog time practicing to be able to do the ones they can. It fundamentally automates an aspect of fight execution that was not intended to be automated.

Both accomplish the same thing, and you still need to know how to resolve the mechanic on both.

Cactbot makes callouts like "NE/NW are safe" or "Look SW". Many of the callouts it makes completely removes any necessity of needing to actually understand how 90% of the mechanic works, and it provides personalized callouts based on your characters specific circumstances. Those kind of shotcalls are really only seen in places like RichCOB, where 7 people knew what they were doing and could afford to make individual callouts for one member.

Is it not more cumbersome to, say... and taking something easy that a lot of people have done... take Construct 7's math thing. There are people with dyscalculia, and I do know someone whose issue was so severe she had issues clearing TEA's Limit Cut because she couldn't count. She had to resort to shapes rather than counting dots. When farming the Lighthouse, I had to resolve my own math mechanic and also look at her number and health in advance to tell her which number she had to go. And on one run, I had to do it for her and someone else who wasn't getting the mechanic.

Sure, it's a third party tool and that's a no-no. But if it's just to call mechanics out for people and give them a heads up on what they have to do, is it really cheating?

It doesn't just call out mechanics. It solves mechanics, and tells you what to do. It is not comparable to a human shot-caller. I don't really mind if people with rare disabilities use certain things for accessibility purposes, and there's an important difference between a trigger that just says "Three" when you get 3 above your head, versus a cactbot module that reads 3 different divebomb coordinates and then actively tells you where you need to stand because you have 3.

[Midareyukki]

It doesn't just call out mechanics. It solves mechanics, and tells you what to do. It is not comparable to a human shot-caller. I don't really mind if people with rare disabilities use certain things for accessibility purposes, and there's an important difference between a trigger that just says "Three" when you get 3 above your head, versus a cactbot module that reads 3 different divebomb coordinates and then actively tells you where you need to stand because you have 3.

So was I resolving mechanics for other people. So were my friends resolving mechanics for me when I couldn't tell which direction to go on E10S's shadows. Or when the party leader called out where to go for during E9S's pizza cuts. But just because I had people doing call-outs, it didn't mean I didn't bother to learn the fight or resolve the mechanics by myself. Hell, often times I wanted to do it on my own and muted the person in question because I didn't want to be told where to go when I didn't need to.

[HyoMinPark]

So was I resolving mechanics for other people. So were my friends resolving mechanics for me when I couldn't tell which direction to go on E10S's shadows. Or when the party leader called out where to go for during E9S's pizza cuts. But just because I had people doing call-outs, it didn't mean I didn't bother to learn the fight or resolve the mechanics by myself. Hell, often times I wanted to do it on my own and muted the person in question because I didn't want to be told where to go when I didn't need to.

E10S has been the only fight I’ve heavily relied on things like callouts in a while because I couldn’t see his shadows very well. The design of black shadow on top of black boss just could not be processed by my eyeballs. I agree with the overall sentiment that using shotcalls—be it TTS triggers or a raid leader calling them—doesn’t mean one doesn’t learn the fight or the mechanic. Like with my Nael example: having ACT call out “Dynamo > Thermo” doesn’t absolve the player of properly understanding and executing it. If you don’t understand what Dynamo does or what Thermo does—or what Chariot does especially—you cannot react accordingly in a timely manner and you will get killed.